Is the evse upgrade ul approved ?

[EVDRIVER]

Certainly happens, but what I'm curious about is how it goes from that to a house fire. I guess it would help if I had a better understanding of the temperatures required to catch household items like carpet, rugs, drapes, fabrics, drywall, wood, etc. on fire.

Great question, dunno the answer.

If I recall correctly, the concern people seem to have is that the fire could start somewhere in the wall, and not necessarily be visible at the source of the problem.

Here's an example of a thread with some interesting pics - http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?23521-Sickening-fumes-when-charging&highlight=charge+smell" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Al the parts in the Nissan EVSE are rated to work on 20A continuous load. The reason there are issues with melted outlet which happens on the stock units many times is due to a faulty outlet or wiring not a modification to the cord. Many folks have bad 120 outlets and upgrading the unit actually can make it safer as it is usually being used on a better quality 240V outlet.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The OP in this thread is entitled to his opinion but I have received many complaints and this person has also been threatening forum members. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and some limited bad behavior but threatening members is not acceptable and is crossing the line. This member has been warned and will be banned from the site if they persist in this type of behavior. If this happens to any other member here or via PM please let me know.

Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

The reason there are issues with melted outlet which happens on the stock units many times is due to a faulty outlet or wiring not a modification to the cord. Many folks have bad 120 outlets and upgrading the unit actually can make it safer as it is usually being used on a better quality 240V outlet.

This is a great point, that I think many people will miss. If someone has lived in a house for years and never had a problem w/ their outlets, they'd be quick to blame an EVSE as the cause of a problem like this, even though the true issue goes back to an incorrect install many years ago. The "new" thing added often is incorrectly blamed for problems.

I should also clarify that while I have read about several similar instances where cords/outlets were melted/damaged when charging an EV, I'm not aware of any that are related to the EVSE upgrade. I haven't tracked the stories closely enough to see which charger was used. Just want to be clear that I'm not saying anything either way on the product that's the main point of discussion in the thread. I was following up on one of the many tangents

 

[EVDRIVER]

The reason there are issues with melted outlet which happens on the stock units many times is due to a faulty outlet or wiring not a modification to the cord. Many folks have bad 120 outlets and upgrading the unit actually can make it safer as it is usually being used on a better quality 240V outlet.

This is a great point, that I think many people will miss. If someone has lived in a house for years and never had a problem w/ their outlets, they'd be quick to blame an EVSE as the cause of a problem like this, even though the true issue goes back to an incorrect install many years ago. The "new" thing added often is incorrectly blamed for problems.

I should also clarify that while I have read about several similar instances where cords/outlets were melted/damaged when charging an EV, I'm not aware of any that are related to the EVSE upgrade. I haven't tracked the stories closely enough to see which charger was used. Just want to be clear that I'm not saying anything either way on the product that's the main point of discussion in the thread. I was following up on one of the many tangents

Many Nissan stock cords have had issues because of bad home outlets. In fact so do most 12A home appliances like coffee makers, etc. The Panasonic unit is built very well and there is really nothing inside that would be an issue for wear or heat risk, this is flat out nonsense based on non-facts and misinformation and it feels like astro turfing. in fact the plastic Panasonic case is rated for extremely high heat to the point one could burn something inside intensionally and it would not melt the plastic and extinguish first from a lack of oxygen. The failure with EV charging in almost every case is from using household plugs to charge an EV and not a J1772, this results in outlet wear, high resistance and then heat in the outlet. I have seen this over and over and it is why they came up with the J1772 (at least properly designed ones). The Panasonic EVSE is internally fused as well so any overload to the unit would blow the fuse. I have actually tested mine at 28A, coiled and wrapped in a blanket for hours and the heat rise is barely over what the stock unit produces with no load under the same conditions. Regardless the amps in the unit is not going to heat the unit and start a fire, as any competent person knows the issues are from faulty home wiring components as wil all small appliances. The products of concern are those with crappy engineering that are made cheaply and improperly, like the EV Charge America Unit that had junk wire connections that were barely screwed on.

OP- You may as well attack the Open EVSE project and the thousands of other products out there like this, but you may want to get your facts straight first. Most of the folks doing projects on this forum are very competent, skilled, and highly responsible with an extreme focus on safety. Those that are not usually post their 2 cord upgrade they taped together in their garage for a quick buck, they post once and are gone. Others are those that never speak to these companies and come here to rant about things they have yet to research and usually have some contrived or twisted agenda to push. I respect your right to an opinion but you lost my attention quickly with your threats, nonsense points and arguments.

Next thread.......

 

[bigt]

Thanks everyone for your input.

Your link for the non ul approved product at walmart queen has been certed by other comparable cert companies.
I called my local los gatos fire department and asked him this morning what he felt about buying a properly certed evse then shipping it to third party to mod then use in house non certed and he said it wouldn't be the dumbest thing he has heard of. He did say other things but you all should call your own fire dept and ask them how they feel about it. My house has fire suppression systems in the garage.

The people here stuck that I am lying or spreading them need to realize this started by a conversation that i was coming here for the answer . Now to think my insurance would cover a house fire caused by a modded evse upgrade or anything plug downstream would be speculation at this point.

Now that I know its not specifically designed for the mod and because of that it looses it certs I can look elsewhere to save a buck.

Thank you for those that helped

 

[TonyWilliams]

Now that I know its not specifically designed for the mod and because of that it looses it certs I can look elsewhere to save a buck.

Thank you for those that helped

Thank you for looking elsewhere. No product made in the world was ever designed for an unknown future third party modification, so you won't find that out in the world. UL products can and do fail, including fires. Electric cars can and do fail, including fires.

Frankly, no vendor would want to sell to you when you're threatening to get lawyers before you even made the purchase of a product. It's always a good dose of reality for me that the businesses that I've been involved with; there are guys like you out there that we have to protect ourselves from.

I have no idea what product you'll buy to "save a buck", but I pity the business that sells you one.

 

[bigt]

When did i say i was getting a lawyer.. Your comments tony are great . Im sure your the most pleasant person to be around . One day when you grow up ill be still buying durable goods with a conscience. Anyone can claim anything they want.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Anyone can claim anything they want.

Yes, you have. Best wishes.

 

[kentuckyleaf]

When did i say i was getting a lawyer.. Your comments tony are great . Im sure your the most pleasant person to be around . One day when you grow up ill be still buying durable goods with a conscience. Anyone can claim anything they want.

bigt, I brought this point up before, and like within this thead, many folks defend the evseupgrade product. I agree with them, Phil has proven himself a great engineer, and the upgrade is well made. I also agree with you, it is a good idea to check with your insurance if you choose to use his product in your home. If I were Phil, I'd sell the product with a simple disclaimer stating that it is a modification, and has not been tested by a NRTL, use at your own risk. I would personally not have an issue using the evseupgrade, but I would suggest that you at least have a smoke alarm in your garage if you charge a car in there, regardless of UL listing or not. While I know of no upgraded evse that has caused a fire, many people charging cars in their garage have had electical problems of one sort or another. Like many other people here have stated, don't buy Phil's upgrade, your problem is solved.

As a thought experiment, plugging Phil's upgrade into an outlet, having it lay on a concrete floor, and plugged into the Leaf. If the upgrade causes a failure, the brick is on a concrete floor, not attached to the wall. I think a smoke alarm would sound and I'd put out the fire long before it was a problem. A UL listed EVSE on the wall could start the fire inside the wall, and the fire could be pretty big before any alarm sounded. For me it isn't all about UL listing or not, it is about actually being safe.

 

[QueenBee]

Thanks everyone for your input.

Your link for the non ul approved product at walmart queen has been certed by other comparable cert companies.

Oh, so is this you admitting that you just learned something new and that your bad know it all attitude was actually wrong? Just in case you are curious every time you said UL what you really meant to say is "Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory" of which there are at least 18.

One question this does bring up is the use of an EVSEUpgrade in a commercial setting. If one were going to worry about this they would need to look to their local fire marshall and OSHA. OSHA requires that "Electrical conductors or equipment" have NRTL Approval. One alternative to that is:
"(3) With respect to custom-made equipment or related installations that are designed, fabricated for, and intended for use by a particular customer, if it is determined to be safe for its intended use by its manufacturer on the basis of test data which the employer keeps and makes available for inspection to the Assistant Secretary and his authorized representatives. "

Now to think my insurance would cover a house fire caused by a modded evse upgrade or anything plug downstream would be speculation at this point.

This is not speculation. This is common sense knowledge from someone who understands how insurance works. Feel free to pull out your insurance policy and look at the list of exclusions. It's a pity you wasted your Fire Departments time since you clearly are not the customer this product was made for.

 

[TonyWilliams]

.... If I were Phil, I'd sell the product with a simple disclaimer stating that it is a modification, and has not been tested by a NRTL, use at your own risk.....

Obviously,myou haven't bought his product (I have four times). You sign a big disclaimer with all that that our OP is "warning us" about. It's even on the website.

 

[bigt]

Ive learned nothing from you queen.. You can go bash someone else please. Still waiting to see a product sold by walmart thats not certified by someone . I know a lot more about the certification processes and cost then you . Ask delta , united, northwest how they like the 80 mm clone tph i have designed and manufactured for them all the way back from 94 . All fit form function compatible to the oem. All reversed engineered by myself mechanically and electrically with a oscilloscope.
As for actually walking into santa clara ul building and dropping funds. Yes have done that too. I Have tried to get a onboard dot history control board approved for foster farms so their automated packaging equipment could use my product at a quarter of the per piece price oem .. It was a nightmare . And so was the patents .
Now as for waisting my time and yours and the fd your right this was A waist of a lot of things . Not talking to the fd wasn't., you should call yours and ask them how they feel about modded evse .. I didnt bother going into details for this reason .

Not claiming to know it all . Far from that ..
Anyone not knowing the ul was ruined should understand that

This reminds me of why i steer clear of posting in forums .

 

[QueenBee]

.... If I were Phil, I'd sell the product with a simple disclaimer stating that it is a modification, and has not been tested by a NRTL, use at your own risk.....

Obviously,myou haven't bought his product (I have four times). You sign a big disclaimer with all that that our OP is "warning us" about. It's even on the website.

Certainly sounds scary! It's actually too bad it has to be so extreme in order to protect his legal interests. Something that was actually more sensible would be more valuable to the customer but I guess when you have people like bigt running around this is where we are.

"4. While reasonable precautions have been taken, I hereby understand that modifications made to my EVSE
invalidate any and/or all original certifications and/or approvals and that usage is subject to significant risks. I
agree to not operate the EVSE or any associated electrical equipment, outlets, cords, or devices until a fully
qualified electrician inspects any approves such particular usage."

"5. The EVSE may have originally been designed for outdoor use, however the power plug is not, so I hereby
agree to only connect and/or operate the EVSE in a protected and dry environment and only after all other
conditions in this agreement have been met.

6. I hereby understand that disassembly and/or any additional modification and/or alterations to the EVSE could
be unsafe and/or dangerous and will not attempt any, nor will I permit anyone else to do so.

7. I hereby acknowledge that the use of any additional cords, adapters, or outlets could be unsafe and/or
dangerous and will have a fully qualified electrician approve each particular usage.

8. I hereby waive and release, EVSE Upgrade including its directors and officers, employees or suppliers from any
and all claims, losses and damages of any kind by reason of injury or damage to person or property, including
death, to me or those residing with me, sustained at any time (now or in the future) by any use or misuse of the
EVSE and/or it's related equipment, whether or not resulting from or caused to any degree by negligence, the
condition of the equipment (or the modifications thereof), or from other or unknown cause(s). The preceding
sentence shall not apply as to someone to the extent such injury, damage or death results from or is caused by
the active gross negligence or willful misconduct of that person. I hereby agree to indemnify and defend EVSE
Upgrade including its directors and officers, employees or suppliers and all other released persons against all
expenses, including attorney fees and court costs, that they may incur as a consequence of any claim that I may
make by myself or by my representative"

 

[TonyWilliams]

... While reasonable precautions have been taken, I hereby understand that modifications made to my EVSE invalidate any and/or all original certifications and/or approvals and that usage is subject to significant risks.

Yep, it all there, which proves that the OP is nothing but a common troll. He didn't "save" us and thankfully he won't buy the product and cause Phil a lot of problems like he displays here.

 

[MikeD]

This is somewhat off the subject of the OP, but it still relates to Nissan's new 2013 portable EVSE that comes with the Leaf:

1) Does it perform thermal monitoring at its 120v plug -- discontinuing charging if the temperature becomes too high (the 2013 Leaf Owner's Manual suggests that it does)?
2) If so, does the EVSEUpgrade unit maintain this same thermal monitoring functionality with its NEMA L6-20p replacement plug?
3) If so, is there any way to extend this thermal monitoring functionality to the plug on an adapter pigtail, say a Nema 5-15p to Nema L6-20r adapter?

Thanks!

 

[bigt]

Troll accusations should be considered hurtful comments.

Why is there a disclaimer if its not safe .. If it was recertifed properly it wouldnt need one .

When a product gets ul it has there insurance behind it and so does its resellers .

If a fire was caused by the evse upgrade the above disclaimer would not mean anything.

How about a second owner of the upgrade , is he also agreeing to this release of liability. Think not .

All of you need to chill and understand where i am coming from and not that i care or think anything about this mod . All i asked was is it ul .. Does it have a thermal .. Just think of how many products you can buy that someone has modded and resold as a 220 volt product. This is about the only one . Why do you think the owner of the product mod has not posted here ... Admitting not having proper certs as a business owner in its self is liable. I will just for the sake of being a troll will take this to the next step and ask my fellow attorneys at my gym on monday that work for apple and ask what is the 411 on this mod and his r o l statement . The troll statements have made me into a dick now thank you

 

[TonyWilliams]

No J1772 EVSE that I'm aware has thermal protection, nor is it part of the J1772 protocol. The Honda FitEV has onboard thermal protection. All CHAdeMO chargers have thermal protection.

It's easy to add, as Phil (the guy trying to kill us all :roll: ) has posted previously. I have it on my Rav4.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Troll accusations should be considered hurtful comments.

Yes they are, as that's what you clearly are. We are way past establishing that the EVSE upgrade is not UL listed, but you continue. I'll kick myself for this later, but:

Why is there a disclaimer if its not safe .. If it was recertifed properly it wouldnt need one .

Just for people like you who will sue. The UL listing does not make it safe, as my picture earlier proves. Recertifying the unit would be a giant waste of money, since few require or even ask for that. I don't want to pay more for a product that would be no different with or without UL listing. Yes, even UL listed stuff is sold with umpteen warnings, disclaimers, etc.

When a product gets ul it has there insurance behind it and so does its resellers .

Insurance isn't predicated on UL listing. Clearly, as I already know, you're either a troll or something else worse.

If a fire was caused by the evse upgrade the above disclaimer would not mean anything.

That is absolutely true (you got lucky, I guess), but neither would UL listing protect anybody. Nice try.

How about a second owner of the upgrade , is he also agreeing to this release of liability. Think not .

Well, I don't play a lawyer of the Internet, and you clearly aren't one either, so lets just say that neither one of us can absolutely answer that, nor is it either of our concerns.

All of you need to chill and understand where i am coming from and not that i care or think anything about this mod . All i asked was is it ul .. Does it have a thermal .. Just think of how many products you can buy that someone has modded and resold as a 220 volt product. This is about the only one . Why do you think the owner of the product mod has not posted here ... Admitting not having proper certs as a business owner in its self is liable.

Yep, dumb as ever. As posted on their website, they clearly make reference to lack of UL listing, et al. You even reference that. No, it has no thermal protection, nor does a UL listed one. It's not in the J1772 protocol.

I will just for the sake of being a troll will take this to the next step and ask my fellow attorneys at my gym on monday that work for apple and ask what is the 411 on this mod and his r o l statement . The troll statements have made me into a dick now thank you

Well, I think you're more than a troll, and I've NEVER been intimidated by slimy pieces of dung like you and I doubt anybody else will either. Actually, I'm confident that I can squeeze out more class into the stool than you'll ever have. Hope to never see you again here....


CAN WE KNOW BAN THIS GUY WHO PROVIDES NOTHING BUT TROLLING AND THREATS ?????

 

[MikeD]

TonyWilliams: On page CH-37 of the 2013 Leaf Owner's Manual it states in the "EVSE CONTROL BOX
INDICATOR LIGHT table": For flashing READY and FAULT indicator lights -- under "Status and action to be taken": "When the temperature of the electrical plug [I take that they are only talking about the 120v Nema 5-15p input plug] is too hot, or the EVSE is unable to detect the temperature of the electrical plug, check that the electrical plug is connected correctly. If it is connected normally, stop use immediately and contact a NISSAN certified LEAF dealer."

This appears to be new to the 2013 EVSE, as the 2011 and 2012 Owner's Manual makes no mention of it.

 

[bigt]

Tony needs help ...


I won't bother you don't worry ..

As for ul yes it does bring its financial backing of it approved products and back in 1994 it was 5 million in coverage in damages . I will try to google more just for you.

I have no beef with you or any of you .. I just don't see how someone who asked a question of electrical safety should be treated in this way .. I hope your happy with yourself every night ...

Im sorry for your children , pets, co workers, family and most of all your parents for not helping you sooner with your inability to have proper reading comprehension and manners to the real world.

Being retired at age 28 you become to understand whats important and now that i haven't had to work a day in over 10 years why should i care if my million dollar house burns from a non ul approved device ... Huh makes sense to me.. Ive got nothing else better to do .. Maybe ill just drive my range rover instead