Kona, Niro, (original) Ioniq and Soul will benefit from a gear oil change

[cwerdna]

Thanks for the updates. I'm leasing a '22 Niro EV now and since I can't predict the future of the EV and auto market in Jan 2025 (lease end), I'm hesitant to spend extra $ right now to get this done.

I originally was very likely going to just return at end of lease. But, if the auto market is still nutty then, I might buy it out if my car is reliable enough (for me and in Consumer Reports). If I buy it out, I'd get it done almost immediately.

 

[coulomb]

The averages take aluminium from zero to 200 ppm and iron from 120 to 200 ppm, both over drain intervals ranging between 4,000 to 60,000 km. I'd post a photo if this forum hosted that, sorry.

Did you mean this image? You can "steal" images hosted on another forum without the hassle of having to upload to a third party hosting site.

Use "open image in new tab" or similar for more detail. Taken from this AEVA page, which has more discussion and history.

 

[KiwiME]

If I buy it out, I'd get it done almost immediately.

That's a long time to ignore this since the wear is cumulative. I would have killed to recognise this issue when my Kona was new after paying $75 grand of hard earned cash for it. I left it until the warranty ran out, at nearly 20,000 km.

Did you mean this image?

That's the image I wanted to post. Thanks.
I was under the impression that membership was required to externally view images posted on private forums.

 

[cwerdna]

If I buy it out, I'd get it done almost immediately.

That's a long time to ignore this since the wear is cumulative. I would have killed to recognise this issue when my Kona was new after paying $75 grand of hard earned cash for it. I left it until the warranty ran out, at nearly 20,000 km.

Well, from looking at the US warranty booklet for '22 Niro EV, the powertrain warranty which includes "gear drive unit" is 10 years/100K miles for the original owner. And, it mentions that if you lease and buy it out at the end, you still get that. If you aren't the original owner and don't fall under that lease case, then it's only 5 years/60K miles.

There's also a 10 year/100K mile EV system warranty that includes the motor but doesn't have any limitations on being passed onto subsequent owners.

I've never kept a car beyond 100K miles but have to the 13 year mark before... Unless something in life results in big changes, I generally don't drive a huge # of miles per year. And, while leasing, if I pass 36K miles within my 3 year lease, I will owe extra $ unless I buy the car out.

So, whatever I spend to get the gearbox oil changed before buyout (which may not happen) might help the next guy or me, maybe...

 

[KiwiME]

Quite a few Kona and Niro owners have reported difficulty in convincing their dealer that there's an abnormal noise present when it first starts. Once they're past that point the TSB process is slow because it begins with a new bolts and a bracket change, then ends up with having to obtain a new motor and gearbox which are not always available off the shelf.

Because of the annoyance some owners express my advice is to change the oil now and avoid causing ongoing damage to a car you might own one day.

Here's a perfect example: https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/getting-ev-service-is-essentially-impossible.14688/#post-185916

 

[KiwiME]

Not that there's a proven relation to the tapping noise and failures, but I'm confident now that the poor implementation of the OEM particle magnet is the cause of the oil contamination. Here's a video documenting what I found. I've attached a strong magnet to the underside to attempt to confine the OEM magnet to where it does less damage. More info in the video description so watch on YouTube. Sorry, a bit boring until halfway and no sound.

https://youtu.be/JA2JXDBcR5M

 

[cwerdna]

If I buy it out, I'd get it done almost immediately.

That's a long time to ignore this since the wear is cumulative. I would have killed to recognise this issue when my Kona was new after paying $75 grand of hard earned cash for it. I left it until the warranty ran out, at nearly 20,000 km.

FWIW, I just called the closest Kia dealer to me where I plan to take it for the 7500 mile/12 mo tire rotation and inspections (price was reasonable). I asked them for kicks, how much to get the gearbox fluid changed. They quoted me $299! I declined.

I was like, I can't see how it's that different from an oil change. You guys don't charge $299 for an oil change, right? He said they charge $299 for a transmission fluid change (on an ICEV)...

So, if it were $75 USD... hmmm. But $299 USD for a car I don't own, I will try to find another place.

 

[KiwiME]

A Kona owner was quoted NZ$446 here while another paid only $130 at the same dealer. You're right, they don't know how to bill it. An owner in the US was billed for 3.5 l of oil despite it only taking one. He couldn't get them to understand that. I have a suspicion that there might be a mistake in their documentation because later on another owner reported the same problem.

An owner in San Diego North County reported that his dealer billed it as a diff oil change at US$140, a more reasonable number.

It's about as hard as changing the oil on a lawn mower.

 

[cwerdna]

FWIW, I tried calling another dealer that is further away (I'd have to fight traffic too) for a quote on the 7500 mile/12 month maintenance and gearbox oil change. I'm super busy with work and I couldn't get a human each time I called when service was open. I left two voicemails on separate days. They never returned my calls.

I called a 3rd time today. They quoted me $20 more for the maint but didn't know how much gearbox oil change would be. They needed to forward me to some lead/head advisor. Of course, that caused me to be sent to voicemail and no human. So, I left a VM. Service is now closed and they haven't returned my call yet.

I'd rather get both done in 1 trip (e.g. via above dealer where I still don't know how much gearbox oil change would cost). Otherwise, if I do it, it'll be 2 trips: closer dealer for cheaper maint and some other dealer (if any) for fluid change. My appointment w/closer dealer is tomorrow morning. I won't be able to make it Mon thru Thurs of next week due to work activities and being super slammed with that.

Sigh... I may push my appointment w/closer dealer a week out while I try to get an answer from further dealer.

Update: I realized there aren't that many Kia dealers near me either. The further dealer is about 15-17 miles away, depending on route and I'd be fighting traffic on the way there. The next one's about 30 miles away, also would need to fight traffic. Then after that there are these: 43 miles NW, 46 miles north and another about 50 miles south of me.

Update 2 & 3 : Now it's 4:19 pm Pacific time the day after I left a voicemail with the further dealer asking about the price of reduction gear oil change. Still haven't heard back. This would make 3/3 voicemails not returned. It's now past 7 pm Pacific. Their service dept in theory closed 2 hours ago.

Update 4: After a week of the above dealer never calling back, I finally got an answer by calling them. They want $199. No thanks. Will try to find another dealer later.

 

[KiwiME]

10 months on and the Ioniq / Kona /Niro "wheel of fortune" noise reports are now coming in weekly, including several owners indicating that their Hyundai/Kia dealer or the importer are refusing to cover repairs out of warranty. In one case within warranty, the dealer agrees that there is a noise but the importer refuses to accept the evidence. The InsideEVs Niro forum has that story.

I'm fairly well convinced that the problem boils down to the internal magnet being left loose in a small pocket at the base of the housing where it's subject to influence from high levels of oil flow off the final drive gear. Rather than permanently sequester wear particles the magnet rubs them off as it moves around and releases them back into the oil. If true this would be a manufacturer's design defect.

Another theory offered was electrical discharge across the bearings but there's been no evidence of that. The GRU appears to have a grounding device at the input shaft. That mode of failure would not produce the copious quantities of particles found in many first oil changes.

The source of the aluminium contamination is less clear - my own theory is that it's being rubbed off of the magnet's pocket by the aforementioned magnet movement + steel particles but it's also possible that there is ball-bearing outer race spin occurring at one or more locations. An Ioniq YouTube channel checked for evidence of the prior theory but found none.

https://youtu.be/MqbjkfyJtvE

On my own Kona I've been able to improve the oil cleanliness (over my test interval of 4,000 km) by attaching a stack of external magnets under the housing to help restrain the internal magnet. That tends to support my moving magnet theory.

Around four owners (or their mechanics) in various countries have rebuilt their own GRU to get around warranty or parts availability. Of interest is that all have only needed to replace the bearings. Some have only changed the ball bearings, ignoring the final drive tapered roller pair due to availability.

One question I think I've answered is why both motor and GRU need replacing in many cases of dealer repairs. I believe that is down to the original diagnosis being incorrect. In this video the mechanic makes and corrects this error, illustrating the difficulty of locating the noise.

https://youtu.be/NaXCbnr3cV0

The latest rollup of UOA lab values for iron and aluminium is here. I threw in the two Leaf UOA I had found on this forum.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dZMTkub6rIdNH5-3Ov8qWT7e0UYju_QP/view?usp=sharing

 

[KiwiME]

Nearly a year on now from my last post and reports of gear reducer noises in first-gen Konas, Niros and the Ioniq (not 5 or 6) are still flowing in, about one every 2-3 weeks, all reported on the major global English-speaking forums. Hyundai/Kia did not resolve their design mistakes and they must be thankful that these models are now out of production. Motor bearing failures are often an issue as well but I believe that that is unrelated to the GRU.

The root cause of the GRU problems is simply that the OEM internal particle magnet was left loosely captive in an aluminium pocket rather than retained firmly in place (like on the end of a drain or filler plug) and that causes captured particles to rub off and break away, eventually damaging the ball bearings.

The gen-2 Kona, Niro and all E-GMP models (Ioniq 5, 6 and Kia EV6, etc) now have a fully integrated motor/GRU design (like Tesla does in recent models) that eliminates some of what I see as rookie design mistakes. The motor is now a 'wet' type which is the choice of many manufacturers, notably excluding VW. Using sealed/greased bearings was not a good idea in any EV despite that Nissan seems to have done it right with the Leaf. Motor bearing failures are now quite common in the Ioniq as that is an older EV. A local company now offers a motor rebuild for NZ$1500.

Meanwhile, aside from answering questions about these problems nearly every day, I've been testing a thicker gear oil in my MY 2019 Kona 64kWh (at 30,000 km). I know that some Leaf owners use thinner oils with the goal of improving efficiency but in my case I wanted to see how a thicker oil performed.
The reason was to quieten the GRU and perhaps offer better protection to the spider gears. The OEM callout is a 70W GL4 which is essentially has the same performance as an ATF as far as gears are concerned. I'm testing a 75W-80 GL4 which is nearly twice as thick. Three months on I'm very happy with this choice.

Not only does the car drive more quietly but I'm only seeing a slight loss of efficiency. I intentionally installed this oil at the start of winter as that would offer the best chance at identifying any changes. But it's all been good so far. Summer, starting about December, will reveal any serious changes.

 

[Radek Uchytil]

Nearly a year on now from my last post and reports of gear reducer noises in first-gen Konas, Niros and the Ioniq (not 5 or 6) are still flowing in, about one every 2-3 weeks, all reported on the major global English-speaking forums. Hyundai/Kia did not resolve their design mistakes and they must be thankful that these models are now out of production. Motor bearing failures are often an issue as well but I believe that that is unrelated to the GRU.

The root cause of the GRU problems is simply that the OEM internal particle magnet was left loosely captive in an aluminium pocket rather than retained firmly in place (like on the end of a drain or filler plug) and that causes captured particles to rub off and break away, eventually damaging the ball bearings.

The gen-2 Kona, Niro and all E-GMP models (Ioniq 5, 6 and Kia EV6, etc) now have a fully integrated motor/GRU design (like Tesla does in recent models) that eliminates some of what I see as rookie design mistakes. The motor is now a 'wet' type which is the choice of many manufacturers, notably excluding VW. Using sealed/greased bearings was not a good idea in any EV despite that Nissan seems to have done it right with the Leaf. Motor bearing failures are now quite common in the Ioniq as that is an older EV. A local company now offers a motor rebuild for NZ$1500.

Meanwhile, aside from answering questions about these problems nearly every day, I've been testing a thicker gear oil in my MY 2019 Kona 64kWh (at 30,000 km). I know that some Leaf owners use thinner oils with the goal of improving efficiency but in my case I wanted to see how a thicker oil performed.
The reason was to quieten the GRU and perhaps offer better protection to the spider gears. The OEM callout is a 70W GL4 which is essentially has the same performance as an ATF as far as gears are concerned. I'm testing a 75W-80 GL4 which is nearly twice as thick. Three months on I'm very happy with this choice.

Not only does the car drive more quietly but I'm only seeing a slight loss of efficiency. I intentionally installed this oil at the start of winter as that would offer the best chance at identifying any changes. But it's all been good so far. Summer, starting about December, will reveal any serious changes.

Yes, I used Ravenol ULV-T extra thin gear oil on my Leaf. I didn't notice any increased noise.