LEAF advisory group

[mwalsh]

Talking with the LAB members is probably their best source of customer information, even though we're unlikely to ever find out about it here given NDAs and necessary competitive secrets. I suppose we'll be able to infer that they listened to LAB members when/if we see them doing some really smart things.

I still need to know that the LAB members' concerns are MY concerns, and for that we NEED to know what they are talking about (even if it's only in the abstract). I personally don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Problem is, it's not in Nissan's interest to reveal too much, too soon. They need to sell the existing version, while conducting a massive beta test thanks to all of us who push ok to accept. If the next MY promises a major improvement, current inventory stalls, until we get clearance prices. Is there a history of major revelations just before a new MY ships?

 

[mwalsh]

Problem is, it's not in Nissan's interest to reveal too much, too soon. They need to sell the existing version, while conducting a massive beta test thanks to all of us who push ok to accept. If the next MY promises a major improvement, current inventory stalls, until we get clearance prices. Is there a history of major revelations just before a new MY ships?

At this point, I care about the deficiencies in my car FAR more than I care about improving the vehicle for future owners.

 

[TomT]

I originally signed up for the BMW ActiveE... I was accepted in to the program and from that point forward, received constant updates and even a number of phone calls from folks at BMW as it drew closer to fruition... So VERY much different than how Nissan treated the early Leaf buyers - I very much felt like one of the fraternity and an active partner (pun intended) with BMW... (I would have been driving an ActiveE if the lease payment that was finally announced hadn't been so ridiculously high... I just could not justify that price to be a beta tester, and ultimately passed.)
The point is, Nissan could learn a lot from BMW in this regard...

When I put my name on the waiting list for the LEAF I was somewhat surprised to hear in Dec 2010 that the first delivery had taken place, but the only communication I had received was boilerplate information via email. No personal touch. In fact my first response was an email informing me I had been turned down for the EVProject. (Subsequently that decision was reversed a few weeks later).

 

[darelldd]

I still need to know that the LAB members' concerns are MY concerns, and for that we NEED to know what they are talking about (even if it's only in the abstract). I personally don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

No problem! I can help you with that:
The LAB members' concerns are YOUR concerns. It is what we're talking about.

Seriously. All good now?

For the life of me, I can't figure out the nefarious agenda you seem to have assigned to the LAB. What else would be we talking about but the concerns of the drivers (and yes, the potential new owners... which is inexorably tied to the satisfaction of the existing owners)?? Our job is to advise Nissan as representatives of the broad EV driver base. Our job is not, and never has been, to advise the owners of what Nissan is up to. That part is 100% up to Nissan. That we're told a bit about Nissan's vision for the future (and can't share the details under NDA) is what allows us to try and correct some of their missteps before they take them. This, in theory, benefits everybody. I'm not sure where the notion came from that we would or should be the PR arm of Nissan.

Though it has been implied several times that the LAB is just being set up to be Nissan cheerleaders, the obvious reality doesn't bear that out, does it? Each LAB member sacrifices a lot to be in this group - and everybody's goal is the same: To help Nissan find their way through the uncharted EV wilderness. To the best of our ability, we are holding Nissan accountable for the missteps they have already taken, and we are hoping to help them head off future mistakes.

Cheers,

- Darell, just now recovering from jet-lag on the third day home.

 

[mwalsh]

No, sorry. It's not all good now. It won't be good until I see something happen that is of tangible benefit to us. You chose to accept the invitation to be my advocate with Nissan. It wasn't put to a vote, and I didn't choose you. So you'll just have to live with the fact that the your efforts are going to be met with more skepticism than they would coming from someone I know and trust. If you find that an objectionable point of view, well that's no real skin off my nose.

Edit: BTW, the flip side of that is that if you do break-through with Nissan and a fix for our woes is forthcoming...I'll be the first to heap praise on the whole darn lot of you!

 

[thankyouOB]

I still need to know that the LAB members' concerns are MY concerns, and for that we NEED to know what they are talking about (even if it's only in the abstract). I personally don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

No problem! I can help you with that:
The LAB members' concerns are YOUR concerns. It is what we're talking about.

Seriously. All good now?

For the life of me, I can't figure out the nefarious agenda you seem to have assigned to the LAB. What else would be we talking about but the concerns of the drivers (and yes, the potential new owners... which is inexorably tied to the satisfaction of the existing owners)?? Our job is to advise Nissan as representatives of the broad EV driver base. Our job is not, and never has been, to advise the owners of what Nissan is up to. That part is 100% up to Nissan. That we're told a bit about Nissan's vision for the future (and can't share the details under NDA) is what allows us to try and correct some of their missteps before they take them. This, in theory, benefits everybody. I'm not sure where the notion came from that we would or should be the PR arm of Nissan.

Though it has been implied several times that the LAB is just being set up to be Nissan cheerleaders, the obvious reality doesn't bear that out, does it? Each LAB member sacrifices a lot to be in this group - and everybody's goal is the same: To help Nissan find their way through the uncharted EV wilderness. To the best of our ability, we are holding Nissan accountable for the missteps they have already taken, and we are hoping to help them head off future mistakes.

.

so what is the LAB's view on:
-the SYB,
-nissan's total failure to respond to 2011-13 buyers who dont want to lease a battery.
and
-have you told them they need to do right by the victims of this colossal bait-and-switch?

 

[darelldd]

No, sorry. It's not all good now. It won't be good until I see something happen that is of tangible benefit to us. You chose to accept the invitation to be my advocate with Nissan. It wasn't put to a vote, and I didn't choose you. So you'll just have to live with the fact that the your efforts are going to be met with more skepticism than they would coming from someone I know and trust. If you find that an objectionable point of view, well that's no real skin off my nose.

Indeed. Fear not. I wasn't expecting anything I said or did to be acceptable to you. Leaf owners, as you point out, did not ask me to help Nissan with their Leaf program. Nissan asked me to help their Leaf program help the Leaf owners. Maybe the owners would be better off without me or the rest of the LAB as you seem to suggest. But I'm not going to waste any effort worrying about that. You seem to have found a role that suits you, and I'm glad you're enjoying the "MNL LAB head skeptic" position.

Edit: BTW, the flip side of that is that if you do break-through with Nissan and a fix for our woes is forthcoming...I'll be the first to heap praise on the whole darn lot of you!

We can only lead Nissan to the water. I'm afraid we can't make them drink.

I'm not looking for any praise. And I don't care about any skepticism on your part. All of it is wasted if aimed at the LAB. this is Nissan's show. The LAB is trying to help them help you. If you don't see any benefit, then you're no better nor worse off than you were before the LAB was formed.

As Chelsea put so nicely: Even if you don't support the LAB, we'll continue supporting you regardless.

Cheers,

 

[darelldd]

so what is the LAB's view on:
-the SYB,
-nissan's total failure to respond to 2011-13 buyers who dont want to lease a battery.
and
-have you told them they need to do right by the victims of this colossal bait-and-switch?

As others have already mentioned, Nissan has been told by the LAB repeatedly what the owner consensus is regarding all of this. We have not wavered from the message. We only heard about the leasing proposition about 12 hours before it was released publicly. Beyond our (totally accurate) prediction of what the US response would be, we had no control over how all that went down.

In the end, we have zero control over what Nissan does with our input. See horse and water analogy above.

(And thank you, btw, for at least bringing the thread back on track. Arguing over skepticism about the LABs actions is a complete waste of resources. I should know better...)

 

[thankyouOB]

thanks.
i am glad you guys are letting them know. i hope you join keep firing at them, with the rest of us.
they must know they are in deep water on this.

--
consensus, by the way means agreement; an opinion held by all or nearly all.
so, it would be completely illogical for them to ignore that.

 

[evchels]

So, this week, we get this news:

"A common complaint about the all-electric Nissan LEAF has been its short range, officially 75 miles on a full charge according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. To address that challenge, Nissan could add options for consumers to purchase bigger battery packs to boost the LEAF’s all-electric range, Pierre Loing, vice president of product and advanced planning and strategy told PluginCars.com. “The packaging easiness (of the battery) makes it easier to put more batteries in the car, and you will see this,” Loing said during an interview this week at the 2013 Los Angeles Auto Show." - PluginCars.com

Loing acted, but with no details. The NDA prevents you from doing same, but what can you tell us? Think you any influence here?

The LAB has been encouraging range options from the first conversations in January. Additionally, they have advocated for backwards compatibility to existing vehicles as much as possible- at a minimum, to allow the 100 "real-world" miles that is not only important to buyers, but that Nissan has used in its marketing from the start.

As Darell has noted, no guarantees on the influence...but Nissan's comments in the PIC article are encouraging in that regard too.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Are we allowed to know what the LAB assignments are?

 

[DaveEV]

What's the recommended way to bring issues of attention to the LAB?

For example, many of us are finding that after the P3227 update regenerative braking is much weaker than it used to be, especially with the cooler weather. And compared to the '13 LEAFs which appear to maintain all their regenerative braking down to freezing temps. There are a number of reports in this thread: Winter is hard on range!

 

[evchels]

Are we allowed to know what the LAB assignments are?

ATM, they primarily have to do with providing responses to additional questions generated during the latest round of discussions in Japan. The teams w additional questions are due to get them to us by next week, and we are tasked w providing responses shortly thereafter. Not having seen them yet, I can't say more, NDA or not.

What's the recommended way to bring issues of attention to the LAB?

For example, many of us are finding that after the P3227 update regenerative braking is much weaker than it used to be...

At least a couple of the US members are direct nominations by this group in part because they are active here and therefore keep an eye on the major issues and feedback of various types, and a few others are less talkative but do a lot of reading here and elsewhere. So, we do see the major stuff. However, feel free to ping me and/or the others to elevate anything or simply make sure we're aware of it- given the volume here I always appreciate such notes, especially as initially smaller concerns start to grow, or things get buried in longer threads.

On that note, someone else nudged me about the P3227 update/regen issue as well. I've sent several missives for info into Nissan, and will keep it "on the list" until we have a reasonable response/remedy.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

So, what is the current make up of the group by region? Has it changed after the first year?

The group is actually still mostly the same (we lost one in EU)- it didn't really kick off until January in terms of meeting w Nissan, so we're still in Year 1. There are 6 US members, 2 UK/EU (few more pending), 1 Japan. The current plan is to make some additions and changes over the next several months.

Current members are:

Dave Laur (DaveinOlyWA), WA
George Estep, VA
Kathleen Smith (Kataphyn), CA (LA)
Darell Dickey (darelldd), CA (Sacramento)
Fran Sullivan-Fahs, FL (not active here)
Don Francis, GA (DEFrancis2)

Jeffery Lay, UK
Mark Nitters, France

Yoshimitsu Kaji, Japan (new addition in Nov.)

What will be the procedure for new members/replacements.

Including yourself, that's 70% US. A Canadian, more EU, UK, China?

As someone wrote: a non-EV driver?

 

[DaveEV]

On that note, someone else nudged me about the P3227 update/regen issue as well. I've sent several missives for info into Nissan, and will keep it "on the list" until we have a reasonable response/remedy.

Thank you Chelsea - I would think that this is something that could negatively affect EPA test results if a car were re-tested. Even with the battery at room temperature I found about 5 kW less regen available compared to pre-P3227 update.

 

[evchels]

What will be the procedure for new members/replacements.

Including yourself, that's 70% US. A Canadian, more EU, UK, China?

As someone wrote: a non-EV driver?

We're a few months out, and I've just started to instigate these transition conversations within Nissan and the LAB. But generally:

The group is meant to be composed of 10-12 members, not including me. Everyone was asked to participate for a year. A few may be asked to stay longer for continuity, while others will rotate off. Because of the timelines of a couple of current efforts, this may or may not happen precisely in January- could be Q1, or rotations could simply be somewhat staggered. Too soon to say.

The geographic mix will likely shift over time and is determined with Nissan's input re perspectives that would be most useful, either from currently active markets or ones they're looking to grow. For example, year one was intended to be ~6 US, 4-5 UK/EU, and 1-2 Japan. The group was weighted a bit on the US side due to geography and community need (number/variety of issues and perspectives, need for increased engagement, etc.) UK/EU remained lighter than intended because we lost one member and because I frankly stopped recruiting for a while when nothing was happening, lest I bring more folks on board only to have them wonder for months what was going on. So, there's room for a couple more EU members now (at least one from Norway, for example) and I'm taking input there. But as we go into next year, I've also asked Nissan to consider if and how the regional priorities have changed and will shift the overall group mix accordingly.

As to specific people added, I plan to keep the same general process and thinking as last time. (I've tried to do this as openly and with as much community input as possible; see the beginning of this thread...) The goal has always been for the broader community to feel well-represented by the LAB group, even if they don't personally know every member. So, am happy to have volunteers and nominations, but I also consider other factors proposed by the community (rural/urban, demographics, hot/cold wx, social activity, etc.) and try to end up with a group that hits as many different perspectives as reasonable.

 

[darelldd]

As someone wrote: a non-EV driver?

I'm afraid that Nissan - like all major car companies - already has more of those on the payroll than they know what to do with.

 

[dgpcolorado]

As someone wrote: a non-EV driver?

I'm afraid that Nissan - like all major car companies - already has more of those on the payroll than they know what to do with.

Hah! Right you are, Darell.

 

[evchels]

On that note, someone else nudged me about the P3227 update/regen issue as well. I've sent several missives for info into Nissan, and will keep it "on the list" until we have a reasonable response/remedy.

Thank you Chelsea - I would think that this is something that could negatively affect EPA test results if a car were re-tested. Even with the battery at room temperature I found about 5 kW less regen available compared to pre-P3227 update.

Good point. And as a (small) update, I did get "we're looking into it" responses today from three different Nissan folks in both US and Japan. I don't expect much real info until after the holiday, but will obv pass along whatever comes next.