Leaf sales remain low. Nissan ads missing the target ?

[gbshaun]

Since about 99% of the Leaf members here don't actually own their car (the bank does), maybe you should rethink the "cars you don't own" thingy. It would get awfully quiet around here...unless you know, people feel it's OK to make posts about cars they are paying on.

Damn, guess I finally made the 1%

If you take the gain/loss when the value changes, I consider you "own" it, even if you borrowed from the bank to make the purchase. And as lease holders are making a similar financial commitment over the total period, I'd consider them equally justified in referring to "their" Leaf.

 

[SanDust]

All that's not going to matter when the potential buyer goes to the Nissan lot and finds the range is 70 miles on a car that is stickered for $37,000.

More the 70 miles than the price. When people ask me how far it goes and I say 70 miles they completely lose interest, even though that's plenty of miles for what they normally do and they have a second or third car. It's a huge hurdle, and contrary to what Nissan seems to think, public charging and QCs will help very little or not at all. I wish I had an answer but I don't.

I've driven a Leaf. I understand and know how it drives. What I don't understand is the need to justify one's purchase and seek affirmation by making up fantasies about outaccelerating Mustangs and Camaros. Maybe a 1975 Mustang II ("Boredom zero!"), perhaps.

Seems you're wrong on this one. http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?14511-Smoked-A-Mustang&highlight=mustang" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (not a Leaf but same difference). The Leaf is very quick off the line. Surprisingly quick, especially to other drivers. I know I'm much faster off the line than other drivers.

 

[gsleaf]

] When people ask me how far it goes and I say 70 miles they completely lose interest, even though that's plenty of miles for what they normally do and they have a second or third car.

That's the biggest hurdle I've seen too.

I'm waiting till the 2013 model before I decide if I'm going to purchase one. I'm a huge advocate of electric vehicles, but with the concern over the battery and lack of response from Nissan even I'm reconsidering my purchase. 70 miles will work for me, but I'm very concerned about the longevity of the battery over time. Fortunately I live in a cooler area of the country, but I'm really worried that the Leaf battery warranty is basically worthless since it doesn't guarantee I'll have x% of charge after 8 years.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

More the 70 miles than the price.

40k for a car is nothing in this town.

 

[Chieftan68]

Yeah, nickel and dime stuff like timing belts, serpentine belts, radiator flushes, transmission fluid changes, air filter changes. Shoot, oil changes alone are only $400 over the first 100,000 miles. Who'd complain about that?

As opposed to spending $2000 for a 220V EVSE you need installed in the garage from the get go?

As I stated, much of those maintenance items is not needed until 100,000 miles. What, $15 for an air filter every 20,000 miles? It is nickel dime stuff when you compare it to the $10,000 or more that you have to pay for the Leaf iniatially over any comparable sedan or hatchback. Then add the $2000 initially for the EVSE.

And at 100,000 miles, that petrol car will still go 300-400 miles per tankful. The Leaf? Not so much. In five years, the battery will degrade 20% (or more the way things are going) so instead of a 70 mile range you now have about 56 miles. After that, you may as well replace the battery which will be thousands of dollars.

Doesn't worry me a bit. Don't need to go 300 miles. Don't need a $2k EVSE--I trickle charge every night. No need for a 220. But if I did, EVSE upgrade is dirt cheap.

Let it degrade to 80 percent. I don't care. Still plenty of range for me. But in 5-10 years, probably be pretty cheap to replace the worn out cells (remember, you don't need to swap out the entire battery pack--just the modules/cells that have gone bad). Heck, battery tech may have changed enough to swap out a whole new tech into the car. No one knows what the future will be.

If you have a car with a timing belt--and most Hondas and Toyotas have them--you don't change it (usually around 90k) and it fails, if it is an interference engine, you now have a 3,000 pound paperweight.

I know of no manufacturer of automobiles that does not recommend a transmission fluid change before 100k. You forgot to mention the oil and filter change every 5k-7.5k miles. That's still $400 minimum that I don't have to pay.

I'd like to see a serpentine belt last 100k. That would be a nice trick. No tuneups for 100k miles? Maybe--maybe not. It goes on and on.

I don't worry about any of the normal stuff that I used to deal with ICE. It's great. People who buy the car for its purpose will love the car--as I do. Would not trade it for anything.

 

[surfingslovak]

Fortunately I live in a cooler area of the country, but I'm really worried that the Leaf battery warranty is basically worthless since it doesn't guarantee I'll have x% of charge after 8 years.

Leasing might be a worthwhile option then.

 

[ztanos]

I've driven a Leaf. I understand and know how it drives. What I don't understand is the need to justify one's purchase and seek affirmation by making up fantasies about outaccelerating Mustangs and Camaros. Maybe a 1975 Mustang II ("Boredom zero!"), perhaps.

Seems you're wrong on this one. http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?14511-Smoked-A-Mustang&highlight=mustang" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (not a Leaf but same difference). The Leaf is very quick off the line. Surprisingly quick, especially to other drivers. I know I'm much faster off the line than other drivers.

They still making 4 cylinder mustangs? I know my saturn would beat the older v6s. Older being early 2000s.

 

[Herm]

They still making 4 cylinder mustangs? I know my saturn would beat the older v6s. Older being early 2000s.

they may come back, but with 330hp

 

[Train]

Doesn't worry me a bit. Don't need to go 300 miles. Don't need a $2k EVSE--I trickle charge every night. No need for a 220. But if I did, EVSE upgrade is dirt cheap.

But it does worry others who don't have the same driving habits as you do, hence the low sales. And dirt cheap? What is dirt cheap for a licensed electrician to install a 220V EVSE according to code?

Let it degrade to 80 percent. I don't care. Still plenty of range for me. But in 5-10 years, probably be pretty cheap to replace the worn out cells (remember, you don't need to swap out the entire battery pack--just the modules/cells that have gone bad). Heck, battery tech may have changed enough to swap out a whole new tech into the car. No one knows what the future will be.

I assure you that most of the public isn't going to stand for a 20% degradation with a car that only has a 70 mile range to begin with. Look at what's happening now after only a year. Indeed, unknowns could be a very expensive proposition for Nissan.

If you have a car with a timing belt--and most Hondas and Toyotas have them--you don't change it (usually around 90k) and it fails, if it is an interference engine, you now have a 3,000 pound paperweight.

Yes, if you don't change it. That's why maintenance is required to keep it running. If you don't charge the battery in the Leaf, it won't run either. But we're assuming people charge their Leaf.

I know of no manufacturer of automobiles that does not recommend a transmission fluid change before 100k. You forgot to mention the oil and filter change every 5k-7.5k miles. That's still $400 minimum that I don't have to pay.

If you read what I wrote, I stated "much of those maintenance items is not needed until 100,000 miles..." I didn't say all of them. Transmission can go 60,000 without changing the fluid. And that's what, $50? Nissan's own Versa's auto CVT can go 100,000 miles without changing on schedule 2. Only if towing, having a cartop carrier, or traveling on muddy or rough roads should it be replaced earlier (or schedule 1).

And I didn't forget to mention oil and filter changes. Read the whole thread. I already mentioned this.

I'd like to see a serpentine belt last 100k. That would be a nice trick. No tuneups for 100k miles? Maybe--maybe not. It goes on and on.

What? Today's serpentine belts are designed to last at least 100,000 miles. Most belts will fail due to age than miles. Indeed there are no "tune-ups" in the traditional sense anymore. Spark plugs can last 100K now. Digital el;ectronic ignition, fuel injection and other improvements have made traditional "tune-ups" a thing of the past.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

If you look at the first 100k miles here's what you stand to spend maintaining a gas car you won't have to on an EV:

oil changes $1000 (every 7500 miles @ $75 a pop for the new synthetic)
air filters $100 (say $20 a piece times 5)
timing belt/oil seals/water pump $1000
transmission fluid change - $70 - $200

Maybe $2500

After 100k miles more stuff starts to go on gas cars, leaks form, motor mounts crack, gaskets and seals start failing, but for a lot of people who buy new cars they will have moved on in that time frame if not sooner.

I'm not about to get all smug about how cheap the Leaf will be maintenance-wise down the road. We just don't know.

 

[thankyouOB]

If you look at the first 100k miles here's what you stand to spend maintaining a gas car you won't have to on an EV:

oil changes $1000 (every 7500 miles @ $75 a pop for the new synthetic)
air filters $100 (say $20 a piece times 5)
timing belt/oil seals/water pump $1000
transmission fluid change - $70 - $200

Maybe $2500

After 100k miles more stuff starts to go on gas cars, leaks form, motor mounts crack, gaskets and seals start failing, but for a lot of people who buy new cars they will have moved on in that time frame if not sooner.

I'm not about to get all smug about how cheap the Leaf will be maintenance-wise down the road. We just don't know.

and, dont forget:
coolant,
hoses,
thermostat
more frequent brake maintenance -- discs, rotors -- because there is no regenerative braking

 

[Train]

Don't forget the battery. That's about $100.

For many people, 100,000 miles won't come for 7 years or so.

In seven years, replacing that Leaf battery, or many of the cells, is going to cost as much or more than all of the maintenance costs of your typical petrol vehicle.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

and, dont forget:
coolant,
hoses,
thermostat
more frequent brake maintenance -- discs, rotors -- because there is no regenerative braking

Hard to say, we've got cars in our fleet with >100k on the clock still on factory hoses. I was trying to give the ICE the benefit of the doubt in deference to Mr Train's argument and stick to things that are a certainty to need maintenance. In fact the Leaf has a fair number of hoses that I'd expect to outlast those on an ICE by not being subjected to the heat, but who knows. Same with brakes, they should last longer on the Leaf, but that hasn't been proven, but yeah, you can probably chalk up another $300 in savings there.

Don't forget the battery. That's about $100.

For many people, 100,000 miles won't come for 7 years or so.

In seven years, replacing that Leaf battery, or many of the cells, is going to cost as much or more than all of the maintenance costs of your typical petrol vehicle.

I didn't put the 12v battery into consideration because there's no reason to think there would be much difference between ICE and Leaf on that.
Main battery life and replacement cost is the wild card, there's a spectrum of outcomes, only time will tell.

To keep this from being a total rehash of OT discussion already beaten to death on other threads I'll toss out a couple other concerns that haven't gotten much air time:

1) Failure of other components besides the battery - What if that inverter controller thingy goes bad? Or the on board charger? I bet any of those are a bundle. Some guy on another thread mentioned $1000 for a headlight assembly.
2) Insurance - Companies have been going easy on us so far, probably based on demographics and maybe just because they don't really know how to rate it. But it looks like the Leaf gets totaled at the drop of a hat, no doubt because there is just about zero experience doing collision repair on them. If that remains the case you can expect premiums to go up substantially.

Now, how did that all relate to the ad campaign? :roll:

 

[thankyouOB]

i dont think the Leaf will get totaled at the drop of a hat.
I got rear-ended and penciled out that it would be good for me if they totaled it, but they didnt.
What I do know is that there is going to be an added cost because of the battery.
they have to remove it for welding that is close to the battery and maybe for some painting, depending on whether they bake it to get the drying done fast or leave it overnight to dry with 100-degree heat.

I will know when I get the statements what taking the battery out and putting it back in costs.
but i was told prlly 2k, when we were just spitballing it.

as to train, I know he can be interesting, but I have blacked out his comments.

 

[Chieftan68]

It's always good to have a contrarian in any organizational group. It helps prevent Groupthink. But, it should always come from someone who has a vested interest in the group. In our case, the person owns a Leaf.

Thanks for the tip on blacking out certain contributors. Trolling gets old after a while.

 

[Train]

Blacked out? I'm touched. Now, that's love right there. :mrgreen:

I remain what I was when I started. Fascinated by the technology, a bit skeptical, and very intrigued. Nissan may make a car for me yet. Something that is a bit sportier, has a better range, and better performance.

I'm going to give it to you straight, whether you like the answer or opinion, or not. I'm not here for the green and the contrived, climate hysteria complete with evangelistical grade FUD. I'm here as a car enthusiast.

Replace that frumpy body with something that says, this EV kicks ass and looks the part. The whole growing trees and whatnot...save it. Not interested. Give me lots of gauges with needles (digital is still fine) and an indicator that tells me I have a whole heap o' torque in here. If I wanted to save the earth I'd be walking. So spare me the polar bears and shiny happy people. Give your next EV a name that makes a car guy say f*** yea. The limp wristed "Leaf" name can evoke the joy of the sensible shoes car.

As many here may have me on ignore, blacked out (*chuckle*) because they prefer not to hear dissent in the hive, I will say this: The EV enthusiasts here put their money where their mouth is. They are passionate, dedicated and and knowledgeable.

I will continue to impart common sense whether some will read my words or not. I differ politically and I don't mince words. But I admire the conviction of the like minded mates in this discussion forum.

 

[garsh]

Well said, Train. It's a shame that some members here can't recognize the validity of those opinions. I guess some people feel that the world should think as they do, instead of taking the time to understand how others have different opinions and needs.

I was likewise "attacked" in a thread on this site. I was called "negative" for having an opinion that different from the vocal members of this board. I was told by two different people that "I must not own a Leaf", even though my profile plainly states that I do, indeed, own one. I love the car, but people need to realize that it only appeals to a very small part of the car-buying public. Hopefully that will change over time, as more electric models are available, and advances are made in battery technology.

In the meantime, I'm happy that my current situation makes the Leaf an *ideal* vehicle for me, and I hope to enjoy it for many years.

 

[Alric]

Train's attitude is going to kill us all.

 

[garsh]

Train's attitude is going to kill us all.

You need to take a long, hard look in the mirror. He's not killing anybody, and it's ridiculous for you to make such statements.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Train's attitude is going to kill us all.

You need to take a long, hard look in the mirror. He's not killing anybody, and it's ridiculous for you to make such statements.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm?s=t" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;