DaveinOlyWA said:well, looks like certain areas simply will not do with TMS. its an added expense I don't need so make it an option Nissan.
GetOffYourGas said:DaveinOlyWA said:well, looks like certain areas simply will not do with TMS. its an added expense I don't need so make it an option Nissan.
I likely don't need TMS either, although my summers get a little hotter than yours. But I don't think that TMS is the sort of thing that anyone will provide as an option. They'll likely either engineer it in always or never. So your options are more likely something like a Focus EV with TMS or a Leaf without it.
finman100 said:uh...I don't think the lack of Leaf TMS has much to do with wearing a hat. I think the big issue is still dissipating the heat FROM the battery, not using the heater (resistive or heat pump).
I'm in the PNW so TMS talk is nothing I know about, haha.
Having visited my relatives in Phoenix...I KNOW that dissipating heat is an issue! I mean, they wear hats when it dips below 70 degrees F. I feel for ANYTHING (persons or machines) that have to withstand the high temps down there.
DaveinOlyWA said:well TMS also includes cooling. I guess we should find out what the overhead cost is for that in Phoenix
Evoforce said:Here are some statistics for Leaf 2 (Lizard Battery) for the past 14 months.
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It stayed at 100% SOH for close to 7 months then dropped an average of almost 2% per month
(Leaf 2) is on track to lose 1st bar March-April 2016 at 85% SOH
Based on these stats of losing 2% per month, the car will lose 2nd bar July-August.
It will lose the 3rd bar November-December 2016.
It will lose the 4th bar Feb- March 2017
Evoforce said:Here are some statistics for Leaf 2 (Lizard Battery) for the past 14 months.
Dec 18th 2014 install.------ 100% SOH
Jan 2015 100% SOH
Feb 100% SOH
March 100% SOH
April 100% SOH
May 100% SOH
Jun 100% SOH
July 7th------100% SOH
Aug 11th------99% SOH-------1% loss-----Total running loss1%
Aug 25th------97% SOH-------2% loss-----Total running loss 3%
Sept 8th-------95% SOH-------2% loss-----Total running loss 5%
Oct 9th--------94% SOH--------1% loss-----Total running loss 6%
Nov 10th------93% SOH-------1% loss-----Total running loss 7%
Nov 26th------92% SOH-------1% loss------Total running loss 8%
Dec 9th--------89% SOH-------3% loss------Total running loss 11%
======================================================== 1 year mark 11% Total
Jan 11th 2016---89% SOH----0% loss------Total running loss 11%
Jan 21st--------88% SOH--------1% loss-----Total running loss 12%
Feb 12th-------87% SOH--------1% loss-----Total running loss 13% at 14 months.
It stayed at 100% SOH for close to 7 months then dropped an average of almost 2% per month
(Leaf 2) is on track to lose 1st bar March-April 2016 at 85% SOH
Based on these stats of losing 2% per month, the car will lose 2nd bar July-August.
It will lose the 3rd bar November-December 2016.
It will lose the 4th bar Feb- March 2017
I appear to have been too optimistic on my previous predictions because of the 6.5 months that showed 100% SOH before dropping like a rock to an averaged 11% loss for the first year. Having burned through that initial pack headroom for 7 months I can only expect to continue to lose 2% per month on average. That puts me at 11(ish) months from this March to hit 8 bars. It SUCKS. The battery will only be 2.3 years old... My other car (Leaf 1) previously (non lizard) dropped from 10 bars to 8 bars in 7 months on the original battery (April 28-November 25). I was really counting on these Lizard batteries to be heat tolerant with better durability. I am disappointed... I talked to a Tesla Roadster owner a few years ago, and he was losing 2% capacity per year. Sheesh! These Leaf lizard batteries need to be better. Either I need to take the time to engineer something (no time) or find cars built with more durable batteries.
GetOffYourGas said:DaveinOlyWA said:well TMS also includes cooling. I guess we should find out what the overhead cost is for that in Phoenix
Forgoing a TMS in Phoenix because of the extra energy consumption would seem to be penny wise / pound foolish.
Evoforce said:Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (stat of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.
Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.
Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...
tkdbrusco said:Evoforce said:Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (stat of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.
Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.
Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...
I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.
Problem is, that if such calculations prove to be incorrect, it could easily result in very expensive PR nightmare....tkdbrusco said:Evoforce said:Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (stat of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.
Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.
Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...
I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.
tkdbrusco said:Evoforce said:Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (stat of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.
Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.
Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...
I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.
tkdbrusco said:The capacity warranty will also have a time limit on it, so either way I think that if you see Nissan announce a Leaf 2 without a TMS, they have probably done some cost/benefit analysis of the situation and found that it wasn't worth the expense to put in a TMS. Even if they find that the batteries are degrading faster than other TMS cars, they likely have plenty of time before this becomes a PR issue. If they continue to drop the first capacity bar at 15% loss and the battery degrades at less than that rate for 6+ years or 100K miles, the issue wouldn't really rear its head until about 2023 or so. At that point all of the tax credits are gone and the market is flush with EVs from every manufacturer. I bet they are analyzing the heck out of 2015 and 2016 MY cars and seeing what kind of impact the new chemistry is having and extrapolating that out in the lap or with computerized models. If they find they can keep that first bar from dropping with a 60kwh pack before 100K miles, I doubt you'll see a TMS system.
tkdbrusco said:I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.
Firetruck41 said:tkdbrusco said:I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.
Unless I missed something, the warranty is 8yrs (not 80%)/100k mi for the 2016 30kwh pack until you lose the 4th bar. That is down to 66% by 100k, not 80%. So that is quite a difference from the calculations above...
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