Looking for some encouragement...

[Funeralsinger]

Hello Leaf gurus,

I am on the cusp of buying a Leaf and have been doing my due diligence in the way of research, and have been reading this website with interest. What is somewhat disturbing is that a heck of a lot of the discourse on this forum is quite negative toward the Leaf, largely stemming from diminishing range due to battery degradation. There also seems to be general dissatisfaction with Nissan and their response to various concerns about the car. It's almost enough to make this prospective Leaf owner run away screaming.

I'd love to hear some encouragement from you folks, and some reasons why I SHOULD buy a Leaf, as opposed to all the reasons I shouldn't.

Am I even a good candidate? Here's a brief summary of my situation:

I live near Toronto, Canada, and our daily driving rarely exceeds 120km (75 miles) or so, and is 80% city driving between 50 and 75km/h (30-50mph). Our climate is mixed, ranging from -20 to +30 degrees Celsius, with a fair amount of snow in winter. The car would be kept in the garage while at home, which never gets below the freezing mark in the winter.

How long can I expect the battery to be able to fulfill this range?

Will the car be worth anything in 7 years (the length of time I'd like to keep the car if I buy)?

Should I lease instead of buy?

I have a 2004 Prius that I bought new, that's been a great car, and have had people offer me $5-6000 for it this week. Will a Leaf with the original battery be worth anything at all at 10 years?

Sorry for all the questions...I've just had a local dealer call me and say he has 2015 Leafs coming in this week or next, so I need to make a decision soon- they seem to sell out quickly up here, as there are few allotted to Canada.

Thanks in advance for your help.

John

 

[abasile]

Except for more rapid battery degradation than expected, our LEAF has been virtually trouble-free. With care and slower speeds, I can still achieve 120 km / 75 miles on one charge without too much difficulty, thanks to the fact that I live in a relatively cool area. Also, on days when we plan to make multiple trips, we can charge at home between trips.

In warm and hot climates, I would generally advise against a LEAF purchase until a more heat-tolerant chemistry is available. However, Toronto is cool enough on average that a current LEAF shouldn't do too badly. To further improve battery life, during the warmer months, I'd suggest parking the car wherever it's coolest, whether outdoors or in the garage. If possible, set up your L2 EVSE so that the cable reaches the LEAF either way.

 

[Subsailortrainman]

For what it's worth since I have only owned my leaf for 2 weeks...
It depends on several factors.
I looked at the leaf as a 2nd car (actually it's my 3rd) Do NOT buy this as your only vehicle!
If your daily commute is less than 60 to 70 miles round trip then this is a perfect car. I was spending about 225.00 for gas in my truck per month, and I plan to use that for my lease payment. That makes the leaf very affordable!
In the US we get a federal credit of $7500.00 that greatly reduces the cost of the vehicle. Does Canada have any incentives?
Here leasing is the best option in my opinion because the leasing company gets the federal credit and immediately drops the price by $7500.00. You don't have to wait for your tax return to get the credit.
A 36 mo lease with 1000.00 down on a base model S will run you approx 200 to 225.00 per month. (what I spent on Gas, Remember)
No one really knows how long the batteries will last because the leaf hasn't been around for 8 years. We do have a 5 year 60,000 mile warranty due to a class action lawsuit. If your battery will not hold a charge of 9 "bars" (on the charge meter there are 12 bars from zero to full charge) Nissan will replace it with a battery that will. Not necessarily a new battery, but so far all the replacements have been new. Even at 9 bars you should be able to get around pretty well as 30 to 50 mph will get you farther than 60 to 70 mph freeway driving.
Don't know about the cold weather stuff, maybe another member can help with that.
All in all I highly recommend a leaf as long as it's not your only vehicle, and if your commute is within the range of one charge at say 80 %. (will account for battery degradation)
Good Luck!!!
Dave

 

[smkettner]

Great car. Very reliable and fun to drive. Do the lease.

 

[CMYK4Life]

Like smkettner said, do the lease.

I have a 2013 SV. I live in Michigan so I have a similar climate to Toronto. I dont think you or I have to fear rapid battery degradation.

The winters are harder on range but they dont affect the battery as much as baking in the sun. I can squeeze out around 60 miles of range on a very cold winter day with little heat usage. I can squeeze out 40 miles of range on a very cold day with normal heat usage. During the summer I can get around 80 miles of range with little A/C usage. All of the above are at or below 50mph.

Its a great car... My wife drives a gas powered SUV so we use that for longer trips. I only use the L1 EVSE that came with the car.

At fist you feel scared and limited, then you learn the limits, then you realize as long as you plug in at night its no big deal.

The Leaf is great, lease it the first time around until you are sure you like it.

 

[TomT]

The 75 mile part is what gives me pause... If you/she RELIABLY can charge at work, great. If not, you are may be in real trouble in the winter and with snow, and I'd not recommend a Leaf.

I live near Toronto, Canada, and our daily driving rarely exceeds 120km (75 miles) or so, and is 80% city driving between 50 and 75km/h (30-50mph).

 

[LeftieBiker]

The 75 mile part is what gives me pause... If you/she RELIABLY can charge at work, great. If not, you are may be in real trouble in the winter and with snow, and I'd not recommend a Leaf.

I live near Toronto, Canada, and our daily driving rarely exceeds 120km (75 miles) or so, and is 80% city driving between 50 and 75km/h (30-50mph).

75 miles isn't her commute as I read it, it's the farthest she ever drives, with the commute being fairly close to 75 but mainly low speed driving. If she's willing to spend just 1/2 hour at an L-2 station on that 75 mile trip, no worries. If it's a 60+ mile drive in Winter, then I agree she needs at least L-1 charging at work, unless she's willing to set the heat to 60. I'd still lease if the deals are decent, but even buying if she keeps 'hot charging' to a bare minimum the car should serve her well.

 

[UBUYGAS]

I LOVE my LEAF and I wish I lived in a warmer climate, someplace where is it 85 degrees F all year long because I get the best range at that temp.

This past winter at 4 degrees F I lost around 20% of my range. I would not get a LEAF if I lived in Canada. I'd be afraid I'd run out of Juice every time I needed to drive 60 miles.

Get a Toyota Prius C, 58MPG

Or one of these: http://www.eliomotors.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[kaikara]

I live in the GTA and have a Leaf. First thing is get a 3 year lease. You will still get the 8500 Ontario rebate and if you want to stay with an EV at the end of your lease there will be lots of options. I normally don't lease but when I did the calculation the gas, insurance and maintenance savings on what it replaced is almost paying for the entire lease payment a month.

Range is going to be pushing it especially on the coldest days. If you heavily use the heat you can see range drop to 80-100km on those -20 days especially if you are doing highway speeds and that is when the battery is new. Degradation of the battery is much slower in Canada because of our climate but it will happen and if you are on the edge of range on the coldest days then it could push you to the point where you wouldn't be able to use the vehicle on those cold days. Leasing the car would mean battery degradation will not be a concern. The car is actually good in the snow even with the stock tires.

Why should you get one? Because once you drive and EV you will never want to go back to another vehicle. Just be aware of the current limitations before you jump in.

 

[Funeralsinger]

Thank you all very much for the replies!

I should clarify that 75 miles is the most we'd drive in a day, with the average being more like 40-50 miles. Her round-trip commute itself is actually only 20 miles, so the other stuff is discretionary (kids to hockey, piano lessons, groceries, church, gym) that can be done depending on the state of charge. We have a second ICE vehicle as a backup.

I've never leased a car before, as I usually try to keep them for 10 years or so to lower the overall cost of ownership...but I guess I should look into it in this case.

Has anyone seen any 2015's yet? I was very surprised that they would release a car in June 2014 and call it a 2015.

John

 

[CmdrThor]

Thank you all very much for the replies!

I should clarify that 75 miles is the most we'd drive in a day, with the average being more like 40-50 miles. Her round-trip commute itself is actually only 20 miles, so the other stuff is discretionary (kids to hockey, piano lessons, groceries, church, gym) that can be done depending on the state of charge. We have a second ICE vehicle as a backup.

The key distinction is do you arrive at home where you could plug into a L2 charger for 30-90 minutes, then go out to your errands, or is it straight from your commute? With a little time to charge you can get plenty of range back for errands, even if it is cold. And with the ICE backup that makes it even easier. I still would be concerned with the cold temperatures and a 50 mile commute 3 years down the road. But since you shouldn't lose range as fast as others have mentioned, you might be ok for that time period.

Thank you all very much for the replies!
I've never leased a car before, as I usually try to keep them for 10 years or so to lower the overall cost of ownership...but I guess I should look into it in this case.

The value of the car 4-5+ years down the road is a pretty huge unknown at this point. I believe it will be more a function of the remaining capacity bars of the battery than the age of the vehicle. Leases are very popular right now because of this uncertainty and because of tax credits available in the US, and it sounds like in Canada as well from a previous poster's comment. Once tax credits expire and the market for 5+ year used vehicles is established, people will know much better what they are getting in to.

 

[Stanton]

Remember that forums like this typically attract the "top 1%" (or so) of owners/users. For that reason, you tend to get the extremes, both good and bad (not that there's anything wrong with it).

Having said that, I am an (almost) 3 year OWNER and have never regretted my purchase; in fact, it's one of the most trouble-free enjoyable cars I have ever driven. Your driving profile is similar to mine, and the fact that you live in a cooler climate should eliminate the accelerated battery degradation issues I've experienced--although I'm on track to get a new/replacement battery under warranty, and anticipate it will be BETTER ("hot pack") than the one I have.

 

[tivollix]

I sold my 2004 Prius for a californian 2011 Leaf in March 2013, a demo almost new, but with a time and temperature degraded battery (-10% which fits the Stoaty's degradation model) .

Given your numbers and the feedback I get from Montreal Leaf owners, your are a good candidate to own a Leaf.
Battery degradation should be low given the temperature. Still check if the car is usable for your usage pattern with 70% of his range. If yes, then you should be ok for many years probably 10 in GTA.

At -30C it is still possible to drive 60KM, not much more on mine. At -5C my "old" Leaf is still ok for 90 to 100KM and 130KM range at 15C and 85KM/H.

Test drive one, do a long test 1H if possible and it should help you to decide easly

 

[asimba2]

I love my Leaf, it is the perfect car for me and my 35 mile daily commute + whatever mileage I log in errands on top of that. Beyond all of the environmental issues and low cost to run, it is quiet, fun to drive, reliable, I can't say anything bad about it. I would absolutely lease one again.

 

[mkjayakumar]

Lease? Absolutely.

Do not buy.

 

[Funeralsinger]

Yes, we could certainly spend a few minutes charging after work before hockey, etc.

Sounds like it might work...

 

[kaikara]

Sounds like our needs our similar to yours. We are a two car family and when I was investigating getting and EV it just didn't make any sense to get two long distance gas powered vehicles. I do the most driving so I tend to use the Leaf the most. for the odd day where range will be a concern I just swap for the other vehicle. It turns out that 90 percent of the driving we do is in the EV and the other car sits most of the time. Because my wife works from home 80 percent of the time we have gone from using 6 tanks of gas a month to 1 or less. Sounds like you should have no problem making a Leaf work.

Just remember to factor in the cost of a Level 2 EVSE for charging. In Ontario we get half of the unit and install cost back up to 2000. In my case I needed to replace my fuse panel with a breaker panel anyways and they wouldn't do the L2 install without it so I got that included in the install. So effectively I got the EVSE and install for free since I got half back. I had to eventually do the breaker upgrade anyways so it was a nice perk.

I would be surprised if the 2015s are available that early. The 2014 I got was one of the first in Canada and they didn't arrive until the end of January this year. It wouldn't matter much anyways because from the sound of it the 2015 will probably be the same or close to the 2014. It is the 2016 or 2017 that will have significant upgrades.

 

[Nubo]

I'd love to hear some encouragement from you folks, and some reasons why I SHOULD buy a Leaf, as opposed to all the reasons I shouldn't.

After 2 1/2 years I still smile every time I get in the car. I love walking into the garage knowing my car is "fueled" and ready-to-go. I love not having to stop at gasoline stations. I love not having the smells of a gasoline car. I love the smoothness, quietness and the absolutely precise throttle response. I love being able to turn on the climate control from inside my office, or my bedroom, or a restaurant. And I love being part of a change that will eventually make our world more liveable and prosperous.

 

[CmdrThor]

After 2 1/2 years I still smile every time I get in the car. I love walking into the garage knowing my car is "fueled" and ready-to-go. I love not having to stop at gasoline stations. I love not having the smells of a gasoline car. I love the smoothness, quietness and the absolutely precise throttle response. I love being able to turn on the climate control from inside my office, or my bedroom, or a restaurant. And I love being part of a change that will eventually make our world more liveable and prosperous.

+1 to all of these things. The only reason a Leaf isn't going to be my next car is because I am planning on getting a Tesla Model X. But if my wife switches jobs and no longer has a company vehicle, she'll probably drive the Tesla because she works for the power company and can charge it for free, and I will be very tempted to get another Leaf after my lease is up for my commuter car.

 

[WetEV]

How long can I expect the battery to be able to fulfill this range?

Will the car be worth anything in 7 years (the length of time I'd like to keep the car if I buy)?

http://electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd guess yes for 7 years, for most of the pattern you have discussed. Battery life model shows Toronto, Canada as 8.9 years to EOL battery of 70%, however that is based on 21,000 km per year. You might want to try the spreadsheet version, on the same page as above.

However, until there is data for 7 years or more, there are unknowns in how well the battery again model will work.

Should I lease instead of buy?

In hot places, only consider leasing, and tax considerations in the USA can make leasing a much better deal than buying, so expect to hear a lot about leasing. However, you are in Canada, not a hot climate area, and I don't know Canadian tax law well enough to comment.

Also, lease gives you an easy out at end of lease, at a known price.

On the other hand, to lease (and lease again) might be more expensive than buying outright. It is a gamble. Hard to say who will win in a specific case, leasing makes companies money, so I suspect that odds are often in their favor, not in yours. Not true for every lease, and Nissan isn't altering terms by location, making the hot locations easy calls to lease only.

I bought my Leafs, the first one in 2012 and the second one the year. The first one was totaled in an accident. I was stopped and hit from behind. The net cost for owning that Leaf was about US$ 125/ month... Difference in prices - tax credit + electric power + maintenance. Better that I could have leased for, so I can't complain.

Will a Leaf with the original battery be worth anything at all at 10 years?

Battery model gives battery capacity in as 67% after 10 years. I'd expect that a lot of people could find this very useful, and would pay for it. Also, replacement batteries seem likely at some point. Very few people are beyond the warranty, and Nissan has not announced a price yet. I suspect that it will become in Nissan's interest to do so at some point in time. We will see.