Marine grade Power Connectors

[AndyH]

It's worse than that, Planet -- we want to fix while some are spinning themselves up about hypotheticals in which no grandchildren are harmed...

Bravo EVDRIVER, palmermd, DeaneG, and planet4ever for your voices of reason.

And thank you Nissan and AV for bringing us a much needed 'toaster'. There will be at least one day between now at about 2025 when I'll need that EVSE to just work even when I'm thinking about something else.

 

[johnr]

I think garygid has a very good point, this rule making the EVSE required to be hardwired seems to go beyond safety and it just doesn't make sense in light of other countries and applications. If it was such a safety hazard, why aren't dryers and electric ranges hard-wired? It doesn't make a bit of sense, and it really is an inconvenience to require an electrician to install equipment before I can properly charge my car.

 

[garygid]

My gripe is that it has become ILLEGAL to charge the EV reasonably quickly, but safely, carefully, and responsily, almost anywhere.

That is a totally unnecessary, oppressive restriction on EV use.

It is somewhat similar to requiring any toaster, hair dryer, microwave, or space heater to be "installed" (for $1000 each) and hardwired at one location in the house because it is not safe (with the typical, existing plugs) to plug them very often ... and they can cause deaths, especially to short, blind people.

 

[palmermd]

My gripe is that it has become ILLEGAL to charge the EV reasonably quickly, but safely, carefully, and responsily, almost anywhere.

That is a totally unnecessary, oppressive restriction on EV use.

It is somewhat similar to requiring any toaster, hair dryer, microwave, or space heater to be "installed" (for $1000 each) and hardwired at one location in the house because it is not safe (with the typical, existing plugs) to plug them very often ... and they can cause deaths, especially to short, blind people.

First of all it is not illegal to charge your EV at home, you just need to install the appropriate EVSE. There is no oppressive restriction.

Grandma probably does not have a gas pump at her house either. It's just ridiculous that you can't fill up your tank at her house. Look, you can fill up your Leaf anywhere you like with the 120v trickle charge cable. If you need something more, then I'd be willing to bet grandma lives near a Nissan dealer, so just stop in and get a quicker charge there on your way home.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

First of all it is not illegal to charge your EV at home, you just need to install the appropriate EVSE. There is no oppressive restriction.

Grandma probably does not have a gas pump at her house either. It's just ridiculous that you can't fill up your tank at her house. Look, you can fill up your Leaf anywhere you like with the 120v trickle charge cable. If you need something more, then I'd be willing to bet grandma lives near a Nissan dealer, so just stop in and get a quicker charge there on your way home.

Thank you.

You know, as EV (future) owners we might want to think twice about basing our travels plans on imposing on friends and family with our stupid plugs. There are some social aspects to think about here. Do you really want your friends eying their next electric bill wondering if you are the reason it is so high?

Besides, if grandma's dryer is in the basement are you going to tote a 75' 10-4 cable with you? Then start feeding it through windows or open doors? Maybe down the stairs? (we haven't even talked about tripping hazards) And what if grandma is drying a load of clothes when you appear for a visit?

Unless your goal is to have her cut you out of her will...

 

[EVDRIVER]

First of all it is not illegal to charge your EV at home, you just need to install the appropriate EVSE. There is no oppressive restriction.

Grandma probably does not have a gas pump at her house either. It's just ridiculous that you can't fill up your tank at her house. Look, you can fill up your Leaf anywhere you like with the 120v trickle charge cable. If you need something more, then I'd be willing to bet grandma lives near a Nissan dealer, so just stop in and get a quicker charge there on your way home.

Thank you.

You know, as EV (future) owners we might want to think twice about basing our travels plans on imposing on friends and family with our stupid plugs. There are some social aspects to think about here. Do you really want your friends eying their next electric bill wondering if you are the reason it is so high?

Besides, if grandma's dryer is in the basement are you going to tote a 75' 10-4 cable with you? Then start feeding it through windows or open doors? Maybe down the stairs? (we haven't even talked about tripping hazards) And what if grandma is drying a load of clothes when you appear for a visit?

Unless your goal is to have her cut you out of her will...

Everyone is different, I have charged at friends homes many times and it's not as if it's a daily event. Also, my friends charge at my home as well as any EV person who may get stranded if I'm available, this is common in the EV community. The big win is parking garages with free charging, of course this is not such a benefit with the Leafs small 3.3 kw charger, laughable by modern full-sized EV standards.

 

[garygid]

She is in a coma at a rest home, so she does not drive much any more.

The rest home said that we could plug in easily, and were excited to help us make the trip gas-less.

Basically, there are no basements in CA.

And, dryers are often in, or near the garage (or other outdoor entrance).

And, yes, for these trips, and commuting, carry one 25-foot and one 100-foot 30-amp extension cords.

 

[Nubo]

The folks in India don't seem to have any problems working with 240vac.

In India, people also die from falling off the TOP of busses. A somewhat different cultural view of "acceptable risk". :|

 

[AndyH]

I think garygid has a very good point, this rule making the EVSE required to be hardwired seems to go beyond safety and it just doesn't make sense in light of other countries and applications. If it was such a safety hazard, why aren't dryers and electric ranges hard-wired? It doesn't make a bit of sense, and it really is an inconvenience to require an electrician to install equipment before I can properly charge my car.

Except...the National Electric Code and the UL doesn't apply to other countries. We're trying to force our systems to pick and choose from other systems. [Scratch that. Folks are just complaining - they're really not doing anything...]

Having lived in Europe and S. Korea, I can speak from the heart when I suggest that if someone wants to go by German or UK electric rules, they can get on a jet and be there in a LOT less time and $$$ than it would take to change the NEC. Let me know before you go - I'll send you my assortment of plugs from England and Germany.

 

[garygid]

I will just continue to lobby for constructive change here in this country, thanks.

 

[AndyH]

Sorry - it's still apples and oranges.

Obviously some devices can be plugged into 220/240 in the US, right? Dryers, stoves, arc welders, mig welders, etc.

What's different about the EVSE? The fact that the wee beasties are capable of up to 80A, perchance?

Shall we lobby for a completely parallel J1772 with a 20A or 40A limit to allow a plug? Or somehow convince the NEC that Grandma really is ok working with 240V/80A? Sorry - I'm not thinking either of these is going to happen anytime soon.

 

[garygid]

The J1772 does not specify hard-wired or plugin, right?

So, no need to change that.

The NEC currently allows 240v plugin, right?

So, we just need somebody to make the "apple", right?

 

[AndyH]

What's the difference between a stove, dryer, and arc welder on one hand, and a water heater and EVSE on the other? Why are they in two separate NEC categories?

 

[garygid]

An EVSE left plugged in for months at a time, vs. a high-power, pluggable room Air Conditioner? Or, an RV traveling from park to park? Or whatever.
Does the comparison even matter?

It could be the biggest single load at a house. Or, one of several large loads.
Who cares?

Yes, EVs are different, but overly restrictive laws do not help it to become mainstream.

An expensive fixed-position EVSE is OK for some, but "disfunctional" for others.

Nobody is suggesting 80-amp uses.

Just a legal, flexible, plug-in L2 EVSE, please.

 

[AndyH]

You didn't answer the question.

One category:
Arc welder
MIG welder
Electric Stove
Electric dryer

(220V devices with plugs for $200, Alex)

Another category:
Electric water heaters
Electric air conditioning compressor
L2 EVSE
220V air compressors
Hot Tubs
Saunas

(220V devices without plugs for $500, please.)

[edit] had to add hot tubs and saunas[/edit]

Please help me understand the difference from a NEC perspective.

 

[garygid]

No real idea. Perhaps they were confused?

Looks to me like the L2 EVSE (at least versions up to 40 amps) is more like the things in the first group, and should be there.

What do you think?

 

[AndyH]

Oh the HORROR!

Seems that 120V hot tubs can use a plug, but folks with 240V hot tubs must hard wire theirs.

http://hssofmusiccity.com/faq/

Which is better, a 115-volt hot tub or a 220-volt hot tub?
Both hot tub voltages are good choices. A 115-volt hot tub does not need hard wiring and can be plugged directly into an outlet. Be aware that the heater will turn off when the jet pumps are running. A 220-volt hot tub does need hardwiring and a sub-panel. The heater and the jets can work simultaneously.

Gotta edit my list...

 

[evnow]

What's the difference between a stove, dryer, and arc welder on one hand, and a water heater and EVSE on the other? Why are they in two separate NEC categories?

Simple. Home builders are a (very) powerful lobby.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

What's the difference between a stove, dryer, and arc welder on one hand, and a water heater and EVSE on the other? Why are they in two separate NEC categories?

I think you are asking why something must be plug-connected vs hard wired. The requirement for an appliance or piece of equipment to have a plug disconnect depends on whether it is line of sight from another disconnect. So a wall oven, range or cooktop has those big chunky 220v plugs, while the water heater in the garage can be hard wired because the service panel is in the garage too. A plug is not the only means of disconnect. The air handlers are hard wired but they have service disconnects built in. Condenser units have wall-mounted service disconnects.

Hard wired hot tubs have the same requirement. The service disconnect must be line of sight from the tub, but it has to be more than a 5' reach from the water's edge.

The EVSE mounted in a garage where the service panel is not also in the garage raises an interesting question. Perhaps they are exempted from the disconnect requirement but I doubt it. It's possible there is a disconnect built into the unit like air handlers. Or code may require an additional disconnect for those cases. Or maybe inspectors just won't catch that.

 

[AndyH]

The J1772 does not specify hard-wired or plugin, right?

Incorrect. J1772 Jan 2010 clearly states that Level 1 can be connected via plug but Level 2 must be hard-wired to a 240V source.
Page 9 Table 1
Page 11
Page 12


This might be useful...

From J1772 Jan 2010 page 7 section 3.2 (Definitions)

3.2 AC Level 2 Charging
A method that uses dedicated AC EV/PHEV supply equipment in either private or public locations. The vehicle shall be fitted with an on-board charger capable of accepting energy from single phase alternating current (AC) electric vehicle supply equipment. The maximum power supplied for AC Level 2 charging shall confirm to the values in Table 1.

From Table 1 - CHARGE METHOD ELECTRICAL RATINGS (NORTH AMERICA)
Charge Method / Supply Voltage / Max Current / Branch Circuit Breaker Rating
AC Level 1 / 120V AC / 12A / 15A
AC Level 1 / 120V AC / 16A / 20A
AC Level 2 / 208-240VAC / less than or equal to 80A / Per NEC 625

Could it be that while we're allowed to connect our electric stoves with a plug, we're not allowed to connect 80A devices with a plug? Just guessing here... What's the max rating of a dryer plug, range plug, or 50A RV connector?