Natural Gas Vehicles to "Kill" Electric Cars

[AndyH]

Alcohol is a liquid fuel that can feed large trucks using current CO2 rather than dino-CO2. I cannot agree that either CNG or LPG are the best alternatives to diesel.

What if that gas is itself biologically derived? I guess it comes down to what's more efficient.

I really see no reason why long-haul trucks couldn't be at least partially electrified. How many kWh or battery could you hang from the underside of the trailer? Even if electric provides only 10% of your trip energy budget, that's 10% fuel savings. Even long-haul trucking can benefit from regenerative braking and launch assist if nothing else.

Hybrid electric road tractors with bio-derived CNG/LNG range extenders. Done!
=Smidge=

I'll buy that! We already have hybrid class-8 tractors on the streets from a number of vendors. Toss in some multi-fuel/flex fuel capability and we're golden!

 

[skippycoyote]

Electrics still provide a ride with terrific HVH. CNG vehicles don't. I've driven the Honda CNG Civic. I don't drive a Civic but it seemed like it drove just like a gas Civic. So I don't see EV vs. NatGas vehicles being much of an apples to apples comparison.

What does HVH mean? The only thing I can think of is Heaven vs. Hell...and that doesn't make much sense in context.

 

[TomT]

I think he meant NVH which is Noise, Vibration, Harshness.

Electrics still provide a ride with terrific HVH. CNG vehicles don't. I've driven the Honda CNG Civic. I don't drive a Civic but it seemed like it drove just like a gas Civic. So I don't see EV vs. NatGas vehicles being much of an apples to apples comparison.

What does HVH mean? The only thing I can think of is Heaven vs. Hell...and that doesn't make much sense in context.

 

[charlie1300]

The local paper had an article about our gas and electic utility trying to get state grants for public charging stations and CNG fueling stations. They said the tipical initial cost for the EVSE was $15,000 and for the CNG fueling station was $1 million. So the infrastructure cost for CNG is even a bigger hill to climb. Hard to see it happening.

 

[skippycoyote]

How do NGVs (Natural Gas Vehicles) measure up to EVs?
1. Though NGVs do have less tailpipe emissions than gasoline, they have greater emissions than gasoline in their production and transportation.
2. NGVs are cheaper to fuel than gasoline vehicles, though still more expensive than EVs.
3. NGVs are about as efficient as gasoline vehicles. EVs are more efficient than both NGVs and gasoline vehicles. Hooray for the second law of thermodynamics!
4. You can refuel your NGV at home with the right equipment if you already have natural gas supplied to your house. If you do not (I don't), you would have to have it delivered and stored in a tank.
5. NGVs still burn fuel.
So, it would seem comparing NGVs and EVs is like comparing apples to oranges. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages. They are from two different markets.

I have to question #1 and #4...

1) The only functional difference between a gasoline and natural gas vehicle is the fuel tank and fuel delivery system. Both of these differences are incredibly minor. What makes you say manufacturing an NGV produces greater emissions?

4) I don't know of anyone who has natural gas delivered and stored in a tank... unless you mean propane, which I suppose is technically a natural gas but not what most people think of when you say Natural Gas - which is methane. Considering the safety concerns with storing methane (either in compressed gas or cryogenic liquid) I can't imagine many people would have or want such a storage system in their home. To refuel a methane powered vehicle, you either need a gas pipe to your home with a compressor, or you go to a fueling station.

Otherwise I agree with your post entirely.
=Smidge=

Whoops! You are correct. For #1 I meant to say that producing and transporting CNG produces more emissions than producing and transporting gasoline.
For #4 Yeah, those tanks I see in people's yards in the colder areas are probably propane, not methane. I was off by 2 carbons and 4 hydrogens.

 

[Smidge204]

The local paper had an article about our gas and electic utility trying to get state grants for public charging stations and CNG fueling stations. They said the tipical initial cost for the EVSE was $15,000 and for the CNG fueling station was $1 million. So the infrastructure cost for CNG is even a bigger hill to climb. Hard to see it happening.

That number is about right for a smallish medium sized station, in my experience. A 3-pack of cylindrical storage bottles costs ~$240K. A pair of 130SCFM compressors with all the trimmings will run you ~$400K. By the time you're done with all ancillary equipment, piping and labor you're easily up around $1M.

Thinking about it, CNG fueling has a lot in common with EV charging.

-Both have slow instantaneous "fueling" rates. Refilling a CNG vehicle only goes quickly thanks to storage - an option EV charging lacks. Refueling a large truck or bus direct from the compressors like those above would take upwards of 20 minutes. (127 SCFM ~= 1 Gasoline Gallon Equiv. per minute)

-The faster the "fueling" the less effective it is. EVs on quick charge need to stop short of full due to heat and risk to the chemistry. CNG vehicles don't get as complete a fill on fast fueling due to heat of compression artificially raising the pressure of the tanks (fuel gauge drops once temp equalizes).

-Both systems are ideally suited for overnight operation - plug the vehicle in, walk away, come back to a full whatever in the morning.

Huh...
=Smidge=

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

not to sidetrack the discussion, but i think that long term, CNG wont work. there have been a ton of studies all before fracking became popular that essentially showed that if we went to CNG, we would be out of fuel in 20 years. has that changed? maybe. Fracking has been wildly successful at producing gas.

but i still think electrified rail is the way to go. we have issues with being able to produce electricity in remote places but no effective way to transport or store it. wondering how effective such a system "could" be if it was supplemented with wind and solar? most rails, especially away from towns are out in the open where wind could be harnessed? what is the transmission distance on a solid piece of metal? granted i am asking questions i have no clue on but metal conducts well. just wondering how far apart these conducting points must be to move a very large heavy train?

 

[Smidge204]

not to sidetrack the discussion, but i think that long term, CNG wont work. there have been a ton of studies all before fracking became popular that essentially showed that if we went to CNG, we would be out of fuel in 20 years. has that changed? maybe. Fracking has been wildly successful at producing gas.

There's no question that "natural gas" is a limited resource. My angle is to also shill for renewable methane (and other fuels). CNG is not the end-game, but a transitional technology; Exploit fossil methane now while it's cheap, and develop renewable (and carbon neutral) methane production at the same time. The transition from fossil to renewable methane would be virtually seamless.

That said: Neither methane nor electrified rail are solutions. They are partial solutions. Partial solutions that are synergistic (if you'll excuse the buzzword!) - Let's have both.

On the subject of electrified rail, I think I fronted the idea of containerized battery packs that could be connected to trains as individual cars. Swap out batteries like any other cargo.
=Smidge=

 

[AndyH]

Synergy is a good thing!

Here's one of today's corporate solutions: Archer Daniels Midland has a 10 acre aquaponics facility in Decatur, Ill that grows tilapia and veggies for stores and restaurants. They use byproducts from their operations to make biodiesel. They haul truckloads of live fish to East Coast customers in their biodiesel fueled trucks.
http://www.agmrc.org/commodities__products/aquaculture/tilapia_profile.cfm

Electric trains - how about a coast to coast high voltage DC power line through the middle of the country that carries power from the plains wind farms to the coasts? The same right of way can be a high-speed rail link for electric trains. Smidge's battery boxcars can charge while underway, can provide grid stabilization while the train's on the 'fast track' and can provide motive power and/or juice for the hybrid system when the train exits to head north or south.

My only concern with going NG now and moving to biogas is that the NG is fully controlled by an industry capable of guiding congress, and is in the business to get as much control as possible. Biomethane is better deployed in a decentralized way - and unless we expect the Exxons and BPs of the world to change from centralized to decentralized production (that requires more people - we can't have that!), I fear that NG today will lead to coal-derived gas later. After all, prohibition wasn't about booze...

If there is an historical lesson to learn from the "fuel of the future," it is that technology is often political. In this case, fuel technology developed in a direction that was a matter of policy choice and not predetermined by any clear advantage of one technology over another.

http://www.radford.edu/wkovarik/papers/fuel.html
http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/08/alcohol-advocate-silenced.html
-San Francisco PBS station commissions 10 part series on alcohol fuel
-After the fourth installment airs, a significant PBS underwriter (Chevron) tied future cash to cancelling the series
-The speaker/author could not match financial strength of Chevron and lost rights to his series - which is still stored in the San Francisco vault
http://www.internalcombustionbook.com/

 

[Reddy]

....but i still think electrified rail is the way to go. we have issues with being able to produce electricity in remote places but no effective way to transport or store it. wondering how effective such a system "could" be if it was supplemented with wind and solar? most rails, especially away from towns are out in the open where wind could be harnessed? what is the transmission distance on a solid piece of metal? granted i am asking questions i have no clue on but metal conducts well. just wondering how far apart these conducting points must be to move a very large heavy train?

Hmmm, I wonder if that's why Buffett bought BYD, railroads and a Mid-West energy company?

Reddy

 

[Smidge204]

My only concern with going NG now and moving to biogas is that the NG is fully controlled by an industry capable of guiding congress, and is in the business to get as much control as possible. Biomethane is better deployed in a decentralized way - and unless we expect the Exxons and BPs of the world to change from centralized to decentralized production (that requires more people - we can't have that!), I fear that NG today will lead to coal-derived gas later. After all, prohibition wasn't about booze...

Andy, Andy Andy! How many articles have you personally linked to about people generating their own biogas locally?

Fun fact: The pipe that brings gas to your home or business is perfectly capable of carrying it the other way. Not that I advocate biogas generators in the home - I don't think that scale of operation is sufficient - but conceptually there's little "Big Fossil" can do to prevent individual gas producers. If I can generate biogas of sufficient quality, in great enough quantity, at low enough price, then I can put it on the market and it will be used.
=Smidge=

 

[AndyH]

My only concern with going NG now and moving to biogas is that the NG is fully controlled by an industry capable of guiding congress, and is in the business to get as much control as possible. Biomethane is better deployed in a decentralized way - and unless we expect the Exxons and BPs of the world to change from centralized to decentralized production (that requires more people - we can't have that!), I fear that NG today will lead to coal-derived gas later. After all, prohibition wasn't about booze...

Andy, Andy Andy! How many articles have you personally linked to about people generating their own biogas locally?

Fun fact: The pipe that brings gas to your home or business is perfectly capable of carrying it the other way. Not that I advocate biogas generators in the home - I don't think that scale of operation is sufficient - but conceptually there's little "Big Fossil" can do to prevent individual gas producers. If I can generate biogas of sufficient quality, in great enough quantity, at low enough price, then I can put it on the market and it will be used.
=Smidge=

Sure. I have this mental image of a bunch of us with two-barrel methane digesters in our backyards that have filled a huge tractor innertube which injects gas into the pipeline. At the other end are a couple guys in suites with their hands on the pressure valve getting ready to put us all 'out of business' as our innertubes pop. :lol:

Let's just stop buying gasoline, NG, et al completely. Hey - four out of five 'pink slime' factories have shut down because people don't want to eat ammonia-infused slaughterhouse slop - let's take control of our energy the same way.

 

[edatoakrun]

IMO, you should file this under: what ridiculous lengths will people go to supply their ICEV addiction?

Prototype Natural-Gas Vehicles Use Gasoline As Range Extender

....what if you could design a vehicle that had just enough natural gas to run 50 to 75 miles--without any change to its cargo space?

That's just what vehicle-development consultant Carlab designed--four of them, in fact--and we drove the prototypes last month.

The concept is identical to that of a Chevrolet Volt range-extended electric car: Run the vehicle's first miles on a cheaper energy source that can be provided at home, then switch to gasoline for those occasions where longer continuous range is needed...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1085008_prototype-natural-gas-vehicles-use-gasoline-as-range-extender" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I can't wait to see the much-more-convenient SAE standard combo-nozzle to fit this...

Natural-gas vehicle prototypes, Los Angeles, May 2013 - gasoline & natural-gas fillers in gas door

http://www.greencarreports.com/image/100431549_natural-gas-vehicle-prototypes-los-angeles-may-2013--gasoline-amp-natural-gas-fillers-in-gas-door" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Smidge204]

IMO, you should file this under: what ridiculous lengths will people go to supply their ICEV addiction?

I'd be more interested in a CNG + Electric hybrid. Gasoline + CNG hybrid seems kinda silly, though I guess it's a cheap retrofit in comparison.
=Smidge=

 

[bowthom]

Hello,
Does that CNG / LNG price ($2.13) include all of the federal and state taxes that for sure will be imposed if there is a wide adoption of it as a transportation fuel?

 

[siai]

I hope those guys with the "prototype" range extenders using gasoline aren't looking for a lot of investors to back them. They are called "bi-fuel" vehicles and my 2003 Cavalier (which is sitting in my garage) and my 2001 Chevy van are both "bi-fuel" and run on CNG until they run out at which point they seamlessly switch to gasoline. These cars have been around for a long time--sort of the alternative energy non-alternative energy vehicle.

 

[edatoakrun]

IMO, you should file this under: what ridiculous lengths will people go to supply their ICEV addiction?

I'd be more interested in a CNG + Electric hybrid. Gasoline + CNG hybrid seems kinda silly, though I guess it's a cheap retrofit in comparison.
=Smidge=

Which brings us right back to the far superior concept (IMO) of the BEVx...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:50 am

The ideas below have been posted on many threads, by many members. But now that many now have had more BEV experience and winter is here (I may get to try out my LEAF in the snow for the first time here in North California, tomorrow) I thought maybe there would be interest in a dedicated thread.

I’m still not so ready to totally write off the ICE, as many on this site seem to be.

In fact, a true ICE ”range extender” for a BEV is not a bad Idea, It's just that current designs are all abysmal failures, from the point of energy efficiency and driver utility. Putting an ICE drivetrain in an EV, whether in series, parallel, or any other hybrid configuration, is not advisable, IMO. Invariably, you will get an overweight, overpriced, underperforming vehicle, like the Volt. It seems almost as ridiculous, to install an extremely expensive and heavy large battery pack (like the Tesla S long-range options) which is only occasionally required by the BEV driver.

A functional range extender would consist of:

A small displacement (200-600 CC) ICE generator, run at highest-efficiency rpm, to recharge the battery pack. Generator output would not be sufficient to drive the vehicle, just enough to extend the battery pack range to the next convenient recharge location.

It would not run on gasoline, but a less polluting, and more stable fuel, such as propane (easier refueling) or CNG (lower cost). 5 gallons of Propane, for example, would probably offer about 200 miles of range extension for a LEAF-sized BEV.

The fuel would also be available to a combustion cabin heater, the one use for which battery energy storage is particularly inefficient.

I think this could be integrated into the design of BEVs (and maybe even as a portable unit, and available for rent, as many have fantasized) at lower cost, and lower weight, than the huge battery packs some BEV manufactures seem to think are advisable.

So, say you are a San Francisco Bay Area resident. You usually keep the heater set to propane by default in the winter, extending the range by about 10% and reducing battery cycling accordingly, without even using the ICE feature. You refill the 5 gallon propane tank once a month or so, just to supply the heater.

When you want to take the BEV on the occasional longer drive, say to Tahoe for a weekend of skiing, instead of making 3 or 4 stops (with a 20-30 available kWh battery pack) for DC charges, you just turn on the ICE generator during your trip, as soon as your battery capacity drops to a level to efficiently accept charge, while you and your passengers are kept toasty warm by the propane heater. You stop for one 30 minute 80% DC charge at Auburn (120 miles in 2 hours of driving, about 20 kWh consumed from the battery pack, and 16 kWh used from the generator) and top-off the propane tank (you only used a few gallons) at the adjacent minimart. This is just enough generator-assisted charge to get you the last 80 miles over Donner Summit to your destination, but you never get “range anxiety" (or BEV "freeze anxiety" about road closures or delays, due to weather) as you know that if you get the “very low battery” warning, you can just pull off the road, and if there is no charge station (or only a L2) nearby, you can always find a place to stop for a short break, while you self-recharge for the last few miles, using your generator. And if you get stuck behind a semi that jackknifed in a snowstorm, closing the road, you can watch the generator add bars to your battery, as the propane heater keeps you and your passenger comfortable, while you wait for the road to be cleared.

I believe BMW may be the only manufacture currently contemplating this true ICE “range extender” option, for its BEVs.

Personally, I believe that the several thousand dollars (?) of increased cost, and few dozen gallons of fossil fuel I would use per year, might be an acceptable price to pay for the increased functionality. I hope that, in the near future, there will be many production "EREVs" worth considering.

Well, 19 months later, I still think it's a good Idea.

Too bad no vehicle manufacture (including BMW, apparently) has moved on it.

 

[smkettner]

A friend of mine was all amped up on getting a NG Civic with the idea of refueling at home on the cheap. As pointed out by folks here on MNL there are some pretty big drawbacks to that. It takes a bunch of electricity to power the home refueling pump (like maybe half of what you need to power a Leaf in the first place), installation is a lot more involved than an EVSE with special ventilation requirements, the compressors are noisy and wear out and need to be rebuilt every few years. Sounds like a big PITA.

+1,

I had looked at NG Honda and looked like big PITA. I would far rather just replace the battery every decade. (posted June 5, 2012)

Same here. Plus it looked too expensive, even with subsidies.

Of course we did not realize the battery may not last a decade and that it would be a $1200/year rental option :evil:

 

[Nubo]

"Don't count on Natural Gas to solve US energy problems"

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/Dont-Count-On-Natural-Gas-To-Solve-US-Energy-Problems.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;