Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

[GRA]

Let's see, that's 43.1% of trips are 3 miles or less, 50.3% are 4 or less, 57.6% are 5 or less, 76.2% are 10 or less, 85% are 15 or less, and 89.9% are 20 or less, leaving just 10.1% over 20 miles, and 83.5% of those trips are by personal vehicle (i.e. not public transit, walking, biking): http://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/2009/pt_TRPTRANS.html

You have to be careful about "trips".

If I drop & pickup kids on my way to work, my 20 mile round trip looks like 4 trips about 5 miles (or whatever depending on where the kids go).

Sure, each trip has a start and end, so a simple out and back is two trips. The issue is how far you need to go between charges, and then choosing a PHEV with the right AER to cover your routine use (and maybe some extra, if it's worth it to you). The Gen 2 Volt's AER covers everyone except the super- and mega-commuters, i.e. 90%+ of the population, and it's not really worth the extra battery cost for now to cover them; Gen 2 BEVs will likely be their best car option (moving closer or taking a train would be their best option from an energy, environmental and probably time perspective).

 

[GRA]

Starting to make the rounds with car mags; recent production model test with AW:

http://autoweek.com/article/drive-reviews/audi-a3-e-tron-first-drive#ixzz3q3y3GWkc

'real world' -- only 15 to 17 miles is disappointing

I think it's quite reasonable, and those appear to be lead-footed auto journalist miles, not EPA miles: http://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/2009/vt_TRPMILES.html

Let's see, that's 43.1% of trips are 3 miles or less, 50.3% are 4 or less, 57.6% are 5 or less, 76.2% are 10 or less, 85% are 15 or less, and 89.9% are 20 or less, leaving just 10.1% over 20 miles, and 83.5% of those trips are by personal vehicle (i.e. not public transit, walking, biking): http://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/2009/pt_TRPTRANS.html

I'm actually just about at the 'normal' daily work commute of about 15 miles each way, M - F but don't have the option to charge at work so unless it could get through say 3 out of our 4 seasons with a consistent 30 miles per charge simply won't work; we'll see how these do but this range is about half (31 miles on the EU circuit) so still disappointing, at least for me.

[As Soup Nazi] "No e-tron for YOU!" A Sonata or Volt (1st or 2nd Gen), depending on how much you value having a real fifth seat versus never using any gas. Or an i3 REx, if you're willing to pay the brand premium for four seats. Or maybe an Outlander depending on what the EPA gives them, but I suspect they'll fall into the same range as the Sonata.

 

[GRA]

Yeah. 15 miles would be a huge disappointment. Isn't the PIP 11 miles? And that thing is a joke. I do about 30 miles a day, and I'm not sure I'm cool with doing fully half my miles on gas. I'll reserve judgement until the official EPA numbers come out, though. Even if it only has 6 kWh useable (which seems super low), that would only be 2.5 m/kWh! I just don't see how that's possible.

The current PiP's 11, but I think it was CR who reported that continuous AER was only 6 or 7. The next-gen Pip is supposed to be considerably more.

 

[redLEAF]

I think it's quite reasonable, and those appear to be lead-footed auto journalist miles, not EPA miles: http://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/2009/vt_TRPMILES.html

Let's see, that's 43.1% of trips are 3 miles or less, 50.3% are 4 or less, 57.6% are 5 or less, 76.2% are 10 or less, 85% are 15 or less, and 89.9% are 20 or less, leaving just 10.1% over 20 miles, and 83.5% of those trips are by personal vehicle (i.e. not public transit, walking, biking): http://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/2009/pt_TRPTRANS.html

I'm actually just about at the 'normal' daily work commute of about 15 miles each way, M - F but don't have the option to charge at work so unless it could get through say 3 out of our 4 seasons with a consistent 30 miles per charge simply won't work; we'll see how these do but this range is about half (31 miles on the EU circuit) so still disappointing, at least for me.

[As Soup Nazi] "No e-tron for YOU!" A Sonata or Volt (1st or 2nd Gen), depending on how much you value having a real fifth seat versus never using any gas. Or an i3 REx, if you're willing to pay the brand premium for four seats. Or maybe an Outlander depending on what the EPA gives them, but I suspect they'll fall into the same range as the Sonata.

Yep, I actually had a number of 4 door sedans in the past and now prefer hatchbacks, SUV's (up to mid-size) due to their practical utility; did the minivan thing (owned 3 over the span of several years) when the kids were small up through college so, mostly for my own driving now its either my '12 LEAF or '13 Touareg; that's why I'm waiting to see the production Q7 e-tron as it could possibly combine enough EV range for work commutes with longer trip use & utility. I had the chance to drive an i3 ReX and its a bit weird on what its 'mission' is ... I mean you can't really drive it very long distances, plus its a bit small on cargo space ... very nice ride, etc, and fit & finish but for that price (loaded these things easily get into the mid-50K range) it has a small niche. Now if Chevy decided to go a bit bigger with their Volt (they showed a mid-size SUV as a prototype a few years back) that might be something ... as far as Mitsu and their Outlander, don't hold your breadth for the US; just maybe in CA or West coast but not the rest.

 

[GRA]

<snip>
[As Soup Nazi] "No e-tron for YOU!" A Sonata or Volt (1st or 2nd Gen), depending on how much you value having a real fifth seat versus never using any gas. Or an i3 REx, if you're willing to pay the brand premium for four seats. Or maybe an Outlander depending on what the EPA gives them, but I suspect they'll fall into the same range as the Sonata.

Yep, I actually had a number of 4 door sedans in the past and now prefer hatchbacks, SUV's (up to mid-size) due to their practical utility; did the minivan thing (owned 3 over the span of several years) when the kids were small up through college so, mostly for my own driving now its either my '12 LEAF or '13 Touareg; that's why I'm waiting to see the production Q7 e-tron as it could possibly combine enough EV range for work commutes with longer trip use & utility. I had the chance to drive an i3 ReX and its a bit weird on what its 'mission' is ... I mean you can't really drive it very long distances, plus its a bit small on cargo space ... very nice ride, etc, and fit & finish but for that price (loaded these things easily get into the mid-50K range) it has a small niche. Now if Chevy decided to go a bit bigger with their Volt (they showed a mid-size SUV as a prototype a few years back) that might be something ... as far as Mitsu and their Outlander, don't hold your breadth for the US; just maybe in CA or West coast but not the rest.

We seem to be on much the same page; I've never understood the appeal of the i3 for the price, and its sales have amazed me. Give it a fuel tank at least twice as big so it could go at least two hours between fill-ups on the ICE, and include hold mode (owners shouldn't have to hack it) and it would make more sense, but compared to a Volt, especially Gen 2, I just don't see the value; the performance level and BMW-ness doesn't overcome the operating limitations.

I've been driving Subie wagons for the past 27 years, and there's such obvious demand for a Voltec-powertrain small AWD CUV (something Captiva-sized would be my choice, although many would prefer the larger Equinox. You can't buy Captivas new in the U.S., but they are available as CPO which must be why I see them around) that it's amazing that even GM could choose to ignore it to date, and give us the massively overpriced, under-performing and unwanted idiocy that is the ELR instead. Although I think the small CUV would probably need a smaller or at least re-located pack than the Volt to allow a full five seats (I don't care, but most people seem to desire it).

By the time the Outlander arrives it may well elicit a so what? response; if only it had shown up in 2013 or 2014. The A3 E-tron is nice, but I'd prefer a real wagon instead of a hatchback/short wagon. Give me an AWD Jetta GTE Sportwagen with at least 15 but no more than about 30 miles EPA AER (mostly limited to inconvenient L1 charging only, with opportunistic occasional free/cheap L2) for $30k or less, and if I can't hold out until an appropriate BEV/FCEV arrives, that would fully meet my needs. I might even consider foregoing the AWD if it got the price down below the magic figure.

 

[redLEAF]

<snip>
[As Soup Nazi] "No e-tron for YOU!" A Sonata or Volt (1st or 2nd Gen), depending on how much you value having a real fifth seat versus never using any gas. Or an i3 REx, if you're willing to pay the brand premium for four seats. Or maybe an Outlander depending on what the EPA gives them, but I suspect they'll fall into the same range as the Sonata.

Yep, I actually had a number of 4 door sedans in the past and now prefer hatchbacks, SUV's (up to mid-size) due to their practical utility; did the minivan thing (owned 3 over the span of several years) when the kids were small up through college so, mostly for my own driving now its either my '12 LEAF or '13 Touareg; that's why I'm waiting to see the production Q7 e-tron as it could possibly combine enough EV range for work commutes with longer trip use & utility. I had the chance to drive an i3 ReX and its a bit weird on what its 'mission' is ... I mean you can't really drive it very long distances, plus its a bit small on cargo space ... very nice ride, etc, and fit & finish but for that price (loaded these things easily get into the mid-50K range) it has a small niche. Now if Chevy decided to go a bit bigger with their Volt (they showed a mid-size SUV as a prototype a few years back) that might be something ... as far as Mitsu and their Outlander, don't hold your breadth for the US; just maybe in CA or West coast but not the rest.

We seem to be on much the same page; I've never understood the appeal of the i3 for the price, and its sales have amazed me. Give it a fuel tank at least twice as big so it could go at least two hours between fill-ups on the ICE, and include hold mode (owners shouldn't have to hack it) and it would make more sense, but compared to a Volt, especially Gen 2, I just don't see the value; the performance level and BMW-ness doesn't overcome the operating limitations.

... (something Captiva-sized would be my choice, although many would prefer the larger Equinox. You can't buy Captivas new in the U.S., but they are available as CPO which must be why I see them around) ...

... The A3 E-tron is nice, but I'd prefer a real wagon instead of a hatchback/short wagon. Give me an AWD Jetta GTE Sportwagen with at least 15 but no more than about 30 miles EPA AER (mostly limited to inconvenient L1 charging only, with opportunistic occasional free/cheap L2) for $30k or less, and if I can't hold out until an appropriate BEV/FCEV arrives, that would fully meet my needs. I might even consider foregoing the AWD if it got the price down below the magic figure.

Your comment on the Chevy Captiva (and GM in what they do internationally) had me remembering one named this on a Canadian plated SUV on a trip last year -- the Captiva also had a few iterations; as a Saturn VUE badged car, etc. but here in the states they sold them to fleets (rental and otherwise) so you'll see them for sale at Carmax and Hertz/Avis when they're turning over their stock. Here is a history link that covers the early nameplate and a second one that covers the latest gen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Antara

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Captiva

On the Jetta (now Golf) sportwagen; yes, that one's also a good size but I prefer a higher ride height on my trip cars (like your Subie); even though you can't see over bigger SUV's, you can anticipate many more traffic slow downs, etc. in many cases so you can reroute and/or start slowing down versus sedans, etc.; the A3 sportback is just very slightly raised but smaller than the Golf wagon so loses points for utility as well as more points for a pretty low battery range despite its premium price.

Audi showed its Q7 e-tron at the recent Tokyo car show and this site lists a 35 mile EV range (of course EU cycle once again) and its BIG (I don't need or want a 3rd row of seats; Volvo also went big with its XC90 PHEV) but we'll see once this car gets tested as well; carrying around extra pounds but offsetting it by using the electric capability may be worth it if we could travel 'gas free' on work commutes; having more cargo space wouldn't hurt either, just would be really rare to ever need extra seating more than 5.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2...-100-km-h-in-6-seconds-17-l-100km-101613.html

 

[GRA]

<snip>
On the Jetta (now Golf) sportwagen; yes, that one's also a good size but I prefer a higher ride height on my trip cars (like your Subie); even though you can't see over bigger SUV's, you can anticipate many more traffic slow downs, etc. in many cases so you can reroute and/or start slowing down versus sedans, etc.; the A3 sportback is just very slightly raised but smaller than the Golf wagon so loses points for utility as well as more points for a pretty low battery range despite its premium price.

My Forester's right on the borderline of tall wagon/short CUV (later ones are definitely CUV), but I really don't care about the eye height, as I'm usually driving on fairly empty roads and can see around the limited traffic with no problems. Nor do I need the extra ground clearance, as I'm rarely driving on unplowed roads, and Subies aren't jeep-road cars (lacking locking hubs and usually, a low-range). After eliminating about a dozen others, the final downselect was between the Forester, the regular Legacy wagon and the Outback wagon, essentially a jacked-up Legacy with plastic cladding on the sides. Any of the three would have suited me as they shared the same powertrain and were in the same ballpark pricewise, but the Forester won out because it was the shortest (good for turning around on 1-car wide dirt roads with no turnouts), because it was the lightest of the three by a couple of hundred lb. (the others had a 1 gallon larger tank and 1 mpg HWY more, but I figured for all the driving I do from sea level up to 7-10k feet, the weight was more important), and because it came with a full-size spare; the others had compacts, and I'm not sure that a full-size tire would fit in their spare wells. As I'm often on dirt roads or way off the main routes, I consider a full-size spare mandatory on trips.

That being said, if I'd been able to wait six months I probably would have gotten an AWD Honda Element, although its 24 mpg HWY fell just below my minimum desired hwy mpg of 25. I wasn't all that thrilled by the suicide doors that force you to open the fronts to open the backs (and forced the front seat pax to unbuckle to let a rear seat pax out, until they changed that in 2007), but the individual easily removable or flip-up-to-the-side rear seats and the waterproof utility rear floor covering were ideal. They'd just been introduced and neither AWDs or manual transmissions were available yet, so I went with the Forester, and it's met my needs quite well.

Audi showed its Q7 e-tron at the recent Tokyo car show and this site lists a 35 mile EV range (of course EU cycle once again) and its BIG (I don't need or want a 3rd row of seats; Volvo also went big with its XC90 PHEV) but we'll see once this car gets tested as well; carrying around extra pounds but offsetting it by using the electric capability may be worth it if we could travel 'gas free' on work commutes; having more cargo space wouldn't hurt either, just would be really rare to ever need extra seating more than 5.

The Q7's way beyond my size needs even if I were willing and able to afford it, but it's good competition for the XC90 and X5.

Just to get back on-topic, here's another A3 e-tron review, via GCC:

First drive: US spec Audi A3 Sportback e-tron plug-in hybrid; 83-86 MPGe with 16-17 mile EV range

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/11/20151103-a3.html

 

[GRA]

Another review, from GCR:

2016 Audi A3 e-Tron Sportback: First Drive Of Audi's Plug-In Hybrid

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100715_2016-audi-a3-e-tron-sportback-first-drive-of-audis-plug-in-hybrid

 

[pkulak]

Crazy that all these US reviewers confirm the 16 mile AER number while everyone across the pond seems to have no problem getting into the mid 20s. What did Audi do to the US version???

 

[GRA]

Brad Berman's very positive review at plugincars.com, and I wholeheartedly agree with his comments:

Why Audi A3 E-Tron Is a More Significant Car Than You Think

http://www.plugincars.com/why-audi-a3-e-tron-more-significant-car-you-think-131158.html

For all the excitement about plug-in electric vehicles since their introduction five years ago, there are only 10 models that sell at a rate of more than 200 per month. Half of those—just five cars—are plug-in hybrids (if you include the BMW i3 with extended range). Starting later this month, electric buyers have one more to consider: the Audi A3 E-tron, which we recently took for a spin from San Francisco to and around Palo Alto, Calif. It’s a great car, but its appeal is a lot less about battery-power—and a lot more about style and road manners. Here's where it gets interesting: there are a lot more drivers who care about those things than about the battle between electrons and hydrocarbons. . . .

 

[pkulak]

Looks like the official EPA numbers are out:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=37130&id=37129

So, 2.6 miles per kWh in EV mode. That explains the horrible EV range despite the rather large battery. I still can't even fathom how Audi could build such a small car, with a permanent magnet motor, that is significantly less efficient than a Model X.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Yeah. 15 miles would be a huge disappointment. Isn't the PIP 11 miles? And that thing is a joke. I do about 30 miles a day, and I'm not sure I'm cool with doing fully half my miles on gas. I'll reserve judgement until the official EPA numbers come out, though. Even if it only has 6 kWh useable (which seems super low), that would only be 2.5 m/kWh! I just don't see how that's possible.

The current PiP's 11, but I think it was CR who reported that continuous AER was only 6 or 7. The next-gen Pip is supposed to be considerably more.

If you want to talk real world miles, our PIP got 15 miles of range in EV mode for a year and a half or so, and it still gets 12. (I'm not sure if the battery has actually degraded or her right foot has gotten heavier.) My housemate (she drives it) has a 43 mile RT commute, passing through several cities both ways. Running it in EV mode in the cities and Hybrid mode on the highway, she has a "car lifetime" average of about 73MPG. Since we live right across the river from a city, we can run all of our errands in town in EV mode - no gas used. This is hardly a "joke." The PIP is the go-to car if you need some EV range for short trips but drive too many miles for a pure BEV, because it gets by far the best fuel economy when not charged.

 

[redLEAF]

Yeah. 15 miles would be a huge disappointment. Isn't the PIP 11 miles? And that thing is a joke. I do about 30 miles a day, and I'm not sure I'm cool with doing fully half my miles on gas. I'll reserve judgement until the official EPA numbers come out, though. Even if it only has 6 kWh useable (which seems super low), that would only be 2.5 m/kWh! I just don't see how that's possible.

The current PiP's 11, but I think it was CR who reported that continuous AER was only 6 or 7. The next-gen Pip is supposed to be considerably more.

If you want to talk real world miles, our PIP got 15 miles of range in EV mode for a year and a half or so, and it still gets 12. (I'm not sure if the battery has actually degraded or her right foot has gotten heavier.) My housemate (she drives it) has a 43 mile RT commute, passing through several cities both ways. Running it in EV mode in the cities and Hybrid mode on the highway, she has a "car lifetime" average of about 73MPG. Since we live right across the river from a city, we can run all of our errands in town in EV mode - no gas used. This is hardly a "joke." The PIP is the go-to car if you need some EV range for short trips but drive too many miles for a pure BEV, because it gets by far the best fuel economy when not charged.

All of these scenarios are based on what will work for you .. with only 16 to 17 EV range (according to EPA numbers mentioned) it would NOT work for my own daily commute which runs 29 to 31 miles R/T but would for my wife's which is only 8 miles R/T. The really short trips are where EV's do quite well as ICE's may not even warm up, you'll get condensation in your exhaust system, and need more frequent oil changes, etc., etc. As far as errands; we do the most on the weekends while not at work so we typically just about max out our LEAF's capacity at 100% charged-up both Saturday and Sundays; sometimes we might even split things and charge it at home for a few hours in-between longer trips. I'd be willing to have my M-F work commute (about 150 miles) on EV power and forego the weekend stuff but not both! If you think a bit longer about it though, our errands on the weekends could typically be MORE miles than the daily work commutes combined which would cost much more in gas (premium no less) in total if we went with a PHEV (although the new Volt may be able to cover half our weekend errand days on EV power and with regular gas for the rest). I do agree though, that you should look at the whole picture if saving on fuel (combined gas/electric) is your main goal with these --- with many EV's (Tesla the exception) buying used and using it as a second car appears to be the least expensive option; again as long as the range limits work for you.

 

[GRA]

The important thing is to have a selection of PHEVs offering varying AERs, as the cheapest life-cycle cost is with the smallest battery that meets your routine daily needs between charges. A bigger battery will reduce GHGs (generally not LCO), but most people aren't motivated by that.

 

[redLEAF]

Apparently it has sold fairly well in Europe ... interesting that the 'un-named' manager failed to add-in the range extender i3 totals; but then again that's kind of what this e-tron is; regardless its not a bad start

“We have sold more A3 e-trons than a competitor in Munich has sold of its compact electric vehicle,” said an Audi manager who declined to give detailed figures and asked to remain anonymous.

Audi sold 11,791 A3 e-trons in Europe last year compared with 5,481 full-electric versions of the BMW i3, according to data from JATO Dynamics.

(If the 6,566 i3s with a range-extender engine sold in Europe were included in the count, the i3 model family outsold the A3 e-tron in Europe by 256 units, JATO’s figures show.)

Audi plans to offer plug-in hybrid variants in all its model lines. The Q7 and A3 plug-in hybrids will be joined later this year by the Q5 e-tron. The A8 e-tron is due next year while the Q6 e-tron, which will be the production version of the e-tron quattro concept shown at the 2015 Frankfurt auto show, it due in 2018.

http://europe.autonews.com/article/...tery-to-make-q7-e-tron-stand-out-from-plug-in

 

[pkulak]

My favorite car reviewer just did the E Tron. If there's anything you still want to know about it, this is where you'll find it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylou-GF5Ux8

 

[pkulak]

Got my E Tron over the weekend! The wife and I really like it so far. I'd say, if it was just me, I'd probably be in a Volt right now (especially a 2017) but my wife hates that car. I've driven a Volt, and the E Tron has exactly that same EV feel that I love, so I'm happy. In fact, it seems to pull harder than the Leaf even though the motor is technically 5kWh less; probably because that power is going through a transmission. It's also smaller than the Volt, with a real fifth seat, about the same interior and cargo room, and a true hatchback. It's more expensive, but there are deals to be had. I got 0% financing plus $1000 off from Audi on top of what I negotiated with the dealer.

Having a level 2 charger really helps. The resistance heater and small battery means that if your car is cold in the morning, say goodbye to your range. And level 1 is not nearly enough to heat the car up. The GOM is accurate, but it always starts off assuming no climate control. So, if it's freezing out and you didn't precondition, you'll see 22 miles until you back out of the driveway and it drops to 14. Haha. I can see that driving people nuts if they don't understand what's going on. Level 2 also helps for mid day charging. We usually do under 20 miles a day, but it's not hard to do more than that EV only if you have to stop at home for a couple hours.

But I'm also not totally adverse to burning gas. I drove a normal A3 for a while and this is a better car even if you never plug it in. Dual clutches shift so smoothly, but are so jerky at low speeds. This setup replaces all the low speed harshness with EV smoothness. I like to think back to my first Prius. I'd have killed for 16 EV miles back then. Haha.

I was a bit worried about the motor behind a transmission, but it works out really well. That dual clutch shifts so smoothly that you can't feel it unless you're flooring it. And it even downshifts as you brake, apparently, but I can't really feel that either. And when the engine comes on, nothing noticeable really happens. Really good in terms of NVH.

I really dig the “gliding”. Engine on or off, when you let off the gas and don't apply the brake, the entire transmission clutches out and you just glide. I think I like that even more than one-peddle, super regen. The regen is still there if you hit the brake, but I like Audi deciding not to emulate a torque converter for no reason.

Anyway, it's a really good car and a shame they are not selling more. Though, I do get it. That's a lot of money for 16 miles. But, if you like the normal A3, after the tax breaks, adding a plug is just about free.

 

[sparky]

Congrats.
So its sounds like you bought rather than leased. Reasons?
I'm not up on how the A3 EV portion works with the ICE. Is it fully BEV until you run out of range or does it do some blending when you slam on the go pedal like the Volt?
Also, are you (or your wife) comparing this with a 2016 Volt? I think that's a 5-seater hatchback, no?

 

[pkulak]

Yeah, we bought this time. I think the days of car companies being as silly as Nissan was with their residuals are long over. And this way we get the 0%.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that it's very Volt like in its EV mode. The pedal actually has a step down notch at the very back of it's travel and before that point the engine won't come on. I've yet to get that far though. There's a lot of power on tap before that notch. It and the Volt are pretty unique there. Most plug in hybrids will spin up the engine pretty readily. It only has 16 EV miles, but at least they are pure EV miles.

Yeah, I'm talking about the newest Volt. I think it's great, but the wife isn't into the styling or the visibility. We actually put people in that fifth seat, so while the new Volt does have one, the A3 middle seat is a lot better.

 

[RonDawg]

Thanks pkulak. I still have my '06 A3 so it's nice to see the comparison (and I agree with you about the DSG -- it hates city traffic). I have an eGolf now but when its lease is up in 2018 I'm looking towards this car, or hopefully VWoA will bring over the GTE line by then.

Also, are you (or your wife) comparing this with a 2016 Volt? I think that's a 5-seater hatchback, no?

4-1/2 seater. The center rear seat is only good for small children, or legless adults :lol: