Weckel
Active member
use CHAdeMonster ? no thanks, this huge plug it is not the future. I don't waste my money on that.
hill said:..... not that it takes a Herculean effort to accomplish that .....TomT said:I've driven it for an extended time and found it to be quite roomy for me in the driver's position. My wife preferred the passenger side of the MB to that of the Leaf, though she likes both and said she would be perfectly happy in either... She did comment, though, that both the MB front seats were better than the Leafs... ......snip......
Weckel said:use CHAdeMonster ? no thanks, this huge plug it is not the future. I don't waste my money on that.
Weckel said:For me the best is Combo Type 2, more energy and only one socket in the car, or Tesla version of Type 2 Mennekes with 115Kw in the same socket. And if America sould be diferent (not always better, just diferent) and don't want have Type 2, they have the Tesla socket powerfull and small, and free of patent. Pay to Tesla for access to their Superchargers sould be the best solution.
Now are more chademo, but in the future I don't think so, when BMW sell his cheap Fast Charger for their Franchises or sell to GM, for example, and it's cheaper than Chademo.
In Europe, KIA put his Chademo with AC Fast Charger too, because they don't trust in Chademo.
Not sure there is enough room for a CHAdeMO in that tiny gas cap area, while the FrankenPlug would fit, it would still be tight. They'll have to move the port, enlarge the gas cap area, or add a new door someplace. I guess we'll see when the 2015 comes out.TonyWilliams said:Let's just say that CHAdeMO wins by default... in a "landslide". That why our "JdeMO" will be a CHAdeMO inlet on the Mercedes B-Class ED, just like the Toyota Rav4 EV.
padamson1 said:Not sure there is enough room for a CHAdeMO in that tiny gas cap area, while the FrankenPlug would fit, it would still be tight. They'll have to move the port, enlarge the gas cap area, or add a new door someplace. I guess we'll see when the 2015 comes out...TonyWilliams said:Let's just say that CHAdeMO wins by default... in a "landslide". That why our "JdeMO" will be a CHAdeMO inlet on the Mercedes B-Class ED, just like the Toyota Rav4 EV.
More importantly the CHAdeMO cables are so short they might not be able to reach the port on the B-Class in its current location (even if you back in) because it's at a right angle to the charger...Kia did it right...
Hmmm this sounds risky on cars that aren't designed for QC.TonyWilliams said:The JdeMO port goes under the hood. All those issues are resolved that way, plus it can be removed for a lease return if desired.
Considering that many cities including some in the US require back-in angle parking, which is safer than nose in, the best position of the charge port is by no means obvious or universal. See:mkjayakumar said:I simply don't understand why all EVs other than Leaf have their Chargeports in the side, mimicking Gas cars. It just doesn't make any ergonomic sense. Given that in general higher the power, shorter the cables, it is asinine to expect people to back in to a charging station. I blame the ICE mentality
Nissan did it right. It is such a breeze to park, pop the door and plug it in.
GRA said:Considering that many cities including some in the US require back-in angle parking, which is safer than nose in, the best position of the charge port is by no means obvious or universal. See:mkjayakumar said:I simply don't understand why all EVs other than Leaf have their Chargeports in the side, mimicking Gas cars. It just doesn't make any ergonomic sense. Given that in general higher the power, shorter the cables, it is asinine to expect people to back in to a charging station. I blame the ICE mentality
Nissan did it right. It is such a breeze to park, pop the door and plug it in.
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padamson1 said:Hmmm this sounds risky on cars that aren't designed for QC.TonyWilliams said:The JdeMO port goes under the hood. All those issues are resolved that way, plus it can be removed for a lease return if desired.
From your posting about JdeMO on the Tesla site, I must assume the RAV4 EV has a Tesla SC port on it.
If RAV4 EV does have Tesla SC, then the battery charge controller and surrounding electrical components wil have the correct firmware and infrastructure to handle that high current & voltage, so things should be OK. If it does not, then it will need to be added so that something doesn't fry and that means meddling with stuff I don't think owners I supposed to meddle with on their EVs.
So I wouldn't be doing this to a B-Class until I know that there is software and electrical components before and inside the battery compartment that are ready for QC voltage and current. e.g. I'd wait for Mercedes to implement their version of QC on the car before I added a CHAdeMO converter.
Definitely, logical. Why bother with a CHAdeMO port if I can use a Tesla SC for free? Well, for one thing, in many areas there are a lot more CHAdeMO stations than Tesla SC's.TonyWilliams said:If the Rav4 EV had a Tesla Supercharger port on it, I most certainly wouldn't be wasting time for a CHAdeMO port. Rav4 EV owners could just stroll into Supercharger sites for free electrons, plus buy the $1000 CHAdeMO adaptor if they wanted to use those stations.
Again, logical. However QC is DC, not AC. So to connect a QC charger one is going to bypass the onboard Rectifier and tap into that supply line. That is not something that I expect that manufacturers believe owners are supposed to do to the vehicle.TonyWilliams said:By the way, it gets the same 400 volts whether it comes from the onboard charger, or from an external DC charger like Supercharger or CHAdeMO. So, to reiterate, there isn't any difference in voltage REGARDLESS of the charging apparatus used.
Educational: I was unaware that the pack accepted such a high voltage, I figured there were Voltage Regulators manipulating things so that the rectifier could just take the voltage that came in. While the 120Amps is informative, I don't need to do the math to know that QC is going to supply a lot more current than that which came from the 6.6kW AC charge source. If the B-Class and RAV4 EV have exactly the same battery pack circuitry as the SC capable Tesla, well the question is moot, they should have the circuitry that I had mentioned and everything should be fine. But if the pack did not, maybe b/c the manufacturer knew that the vehicle did not have a QC/SC port so they wanted to save money, then there COULD be an issue. The question is does the Battery Firmware and circuitry (diodes, etc) have the capacity to shunt that added current and dissipate it if the EVSE failed to throttle down properly? If the pack was designed for QC then sure, if not, we'll maybe they spent more on the circuitry, but I don't want to bet my warranty on that.TonyWilliams said:The amount of amperage that the battery can handle is dependent on a whole bunch of factors, primarily the size of the pack, temperature of the cells, SOC%, etc. Currently, a Nissan LEAF charges at "2C", which means that a 24kWh battery can accept 48kW. Since the battery is 400 volts, that means 48kW divided by 400 volts equals 120 amps. Pretty easy, right?
Again this is sensible and EXACTLY ON POINT. The car circuitry and firmware controls everything. Of course the firmware will have logic to only accept a certain amount of current, based on different SoC levels. But the car was shipped for a charger that tops out at 40Amps (actually less than that, but lets keep it simple). When it gets 3 times it's design load (120Amps), decides that it cannot accept it, but only has circuitry that was only designed for 40Amp what happens? Will the battery charger firmware ask the CHAdeMO to throttle down correctly? I hope so. But there should always be a backup plan if too much current comes in, typically safety diodes. That is where my fry statement came from. My experience in the computer industry is that no one pays for parts that are out of design spec. If those safety dissipation parts are outside of the battery case well then they can just be replaced (but again what is the manufacturer going to say about that?).TonyWilliams said:Then, all the variables of temperature and SOC% are mapped in a program FROM THE CAR SIDE that controls how many amps that the car should request.
Well here's the question. I don't think I'm supposed to mess with that part of the car, whether I paid someone else to do it or not.TonyWilliams said:As to owners having some kind of interaction with high voltage DC, no, owners won't have anything to do with it. JdeMO is wholly produced by Quick Charge Power, LLC for electric vehicles, and professionally installed. There is no owner servicing or handling beyond plugging and unplugging a CHAdeMO plug.
Now here is something that does make me question my concerns. However regen is capped at some level, the question is what is that level?TonyWilliams said:Again, the battery is capable of both. How many volts and amps do you think normal regeneration provides?
padamson1 said:Well, for one thing, in many areas there are a lot more CHAdeMO stations than Tesla SC's.
Again, logical. However QC is DC, not AC. So to connect a QC charger one is going to bypass the onboard Rectifier and tap into that supply line. That is not something that I expect that manufacturers believe owners are supposed to do to the vehicle.TonyWilliams said:By the way, it gets the same 400 volts whether it comes from the onboard charger, or from an external DC charger like Supercharger or CHAdeMO. So, to reiterate, there isn't any difference in voltage REGARDLESS of the charging apparatus used.
Educational: I was unaware that the pack accepted such a high voltage, I figured there were Voltage Regulators manipulating things so that the rectifier could just take the voltage that came in.TonyWilliams said:The amount of amperage that the battery can handle is dependent on a whole bunch of factors, primarily the size of the pack, temperature of the cells, SOC%, etc. Currently, a Nissan LEAF charges at "2C", which means that a 24kWh battery can accept 48kW. Since the battery is 400 volts, that means 48kW divided by 400 volts equals 120 amps. Pretty easy, right?
While the 120Amps is informative, I don't need to do the math to know that QC is going to supply a lot more current than that which came from the 6.6kW AC charge source.
there COULD be an issue. The question is does the Battery Firmware and circuitry (diodes, etc) have the capacity to shunt that added current and dissipate it if the EVSE failed to throttle down properly?
Again this is sensible and EXACTLY ON POINT. The car circuitry and firmware controls everything. Of course the firmware will have logic to only accept a certain amount of current, based on different SoC levels. But the car was shipped for a charger that tops out at 40Amps (actually less than that, but lets keep it simple). When it gets 3 times it's design load (120Amps), decides that it cannot accept it, but only has circuitry that was only designed for 40Amp what happens?TonyWilliams said:Then, all the variables of temperature and SOC% are mapped in a program FROM THE CAR SIDE that controls how many amps that the car should request.
Will the battery charger firmware ask the CHAdeMO to throttle down correctly?
I hope so. But there should always be a backup plan if too much current comes in, typically safety diodes.
Well here's the question. I don't think I'm supposed to mess with that part of the car, whether I paid someone else to do it or not.TonyWilliams said:As to owners having some kind of interaction with high voltage DC, no, owners won't have anything to do with it. JdeMO is wholly produced by Quick Charge Power, LLC for electric vehicles, and professionally installed. There is no owner servicing or handling beyond plugging and unplugging a CHAdeMO plug.
Now here is something that does make me question my concerns. However regen is capped at some level, the question is what is that level?TonyWilliams said:Again, the battery is capable of both. How many volts and amps do you think normal regeneration provides?
+1. Thanks TonyWilliams for your in-depth (and patient) replies.mkjayakumar said:I learnt a lot from this exchange, guys. Thanks to both of padamson1 & Tony. This is what makes this a great forum.
padamson1 said:+1. Thanks TonyWilliams for your in-depth (and patient) replies.mkjayakumar said:I learnt a lot from this exchange, guys. Thanks to both of padamson1 & Tony. This is what makes this a great forum.
TonyWilliams said:The amount of power the battery can accept in continuous charging is determined by a number of variables. Again, Nissan determined 2C was OK. Tesla is slightly more conservative at 1.6C.
Although the number of B-Class owners is quite small, I'd think you've still got a better chance of getting a question such as this one answered on their own forum:gsleaf said:Has anyone noticed windshield distortion with the Mercedes B-class EV? My wife is a bit shorter, but she is getting a headache from looking through the front windshield because it's distorting things funny.
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