TickTock
Well-known member
Was visiting California and had a chance to test drive a Rav4 EV today. The 10k incentive is only applicable to 2012 models so I was wondering what, if any, changes were made between the 2012 and 2013 models.
Official Toyota RAV4 EV thread
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TonyWilliams
Well-known member
TickTock said:
2012: $10k is for SoCal only, $9.3k NorCal
2013: not advertised, $9.5k SoCal, $8.8k NorCal
There is possibly a new dark grey color, but I haven't seen it. Should be the same exact car, 2012 through 2014 model years when production ends and 2600 have been built to satisfy CARB ZEV mandates.
The VIN's eighth digit from the right is changed from "C" for 2012 model year to "D" for 2013, and presumably "E" for 2014.
Hanlees Hilltop Toyota was offering $11,000 off MSRP off the 2013. They were willing to ship the car, so I kept their info. Info for my contact person was:
Dolores, phone # is 510-243-2020. I have no affiliation with them, considering I'm in NY
Dolores, phone # is 510-243-2020. I have no affiliation with them, considering I'm in NY
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
lion said:Hanlees Hilltop Toyota was offering $11,000 off MSRP off the 2013. They were willing to ship the car, so I kept their info. Info for my contact person was:
Dolores, phone # is 510-243-2020. I have no affiliation with them, considering I'm in NY
Dianne at Carson Toyota has shipped a whole bunch out of state, and is probably the largest Rav4 EV dealer in the world.
Since the rebates are higher in SoCal month after month, if I were out of state, I would shop only dealers who have experience shipping, want to do it, have the higher rebate, and most importantly will offer a substantial discount in addition to the rebate.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Let me make a bold prediction. Toyota will offer a hydrogen powered car to comply with California Air Resources Board "Zero Emission Vehicle" mandates for 2015-2017, and it will likely have an up to "300 mile range" (which will mean 200 mile real range) so that they can get 7 credits per vehicle until the 2017 model year (2018 model year reduced to 3 credits per vehicle). If I understand the rules correctly, they would only have to build 1427 vehicles (the minimum), unlike the 2600 Rav4 EV's that they will build for 2012-2014 compliance.
http://cafcp.org/carsandbuses/caroadmap" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"By 2016, California should have 68 hydrogen stations throughout the state to serve the thousands of FCEV drivers expected in the early years of commercialization."
"About half of the 68 stations are open, in planning or have funding committed. An additional $65 million will provide support to build and operate stations until they become profitable."
http://cafcp.org/carsandbuses/caroadmap" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"By 2016, California should have 68 hydrogen stations throughout the state to serve the thousands of FCEV drivers expected in the early years of commercialization."
"About half of the 68 stations are open, in planning or have funding committed. An additional $65 million will provide support to build and operate stations until they become profitable."
Yep, I have spoken with Dianne, I have no problem with her, she was extremely helpful, and highly recommend her. I only posted this info, since people have bought their RAV4 EV from this place before, and they were one of the few places offering good deals on the 2013s (since 2012s are becoming hard to find now).TonyWilliams said:lion said:Hanlees Hilltop Toyota was offering $11,000 off MSRP off the 2013. They were willing to ship the car, so I kept their info. Info for my contact person was:
Dolores, phone # is 510-243-2020. I have no affiliation with them, considering I'm in NY
Dianne at Carson Toyota has shipped a whole bunch out of state, and is probably the largest Rav4 EV dealer in the world.
Since the rebates are higher in SoCal month after month, if I were out of state, I would shop only dealers who have experience shipping, want to do it, have the higher rebate, and most importantly will offer a substantial discount in addition to the rebate.
abasile
Well-known member
IMHO, that prediction will probably turn out to be correct. Hydrogen powered cars earn more ZEV credits than EVs because they can be refueled quickly. However, this is nothing but a sideshow if you ask me. Why even bother with hydrogen cars when there is the 85 kWh Tesla S? With some sort of battery swapping option in the future (perhaps in the form of a second battery pack comprised of swappable metal air cells), Tesla may well go after those "fast refueling" ZEV credits. Even still, "supercharging" seems plenty fast for the great majority of use cases.TonyWilliams said:
evnow
Well-known member
TonyWilliams said:
Depends on whether they lose more with a H2 car or an EV. If they lose more than 2x on one H2 compared to an EV, they will go the EV route. Being a large company, it would also depend on which "lobby" within the company is stronger.
My prediction is Toyota will bring out a Prius EV that competes directly with Leaf, but probably later than 2015. In the meantime iQ EV will do.
TomMoloughney
Well-known member
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evnow said:
Yes, this is what I had assumed would happen. I'm really surprised they just didn't do that instead of the RAV4 conversion, I can't imagine it would have cost them more to do. The PIP is just about there already. Just give it LEAF-like range and I guarantee they would have had no problem selling the 2,600 they need to even if they only sold it in CA and charged $35K to $40k for it. The Prius has such a strong following and owner loyalty, all they would have had to do is send out brochures to all the past and existing Prius owners and they would sell out the inventory instead of selling the 60 -70 Rav4's per month that they are and discounting them $10,000ea.
Then again, maybe that would have made too much sense. Maybe the people that claim Toyota wants it this way so they can say "See we made EV's but nobody wanted them" are right after all.
The problem with the PiP is that they would have to give up a lot more space to get more range. Right now, you still maintain a lot of cargo space, but go look at what happened to the trunk space of the 2014 Honda Accord Plug-in just to get an idea of to render a car useless by stealing too much space.
Toyota is coming out with a new Prius design 'soon', so I'm not surprised that they just shoved a small battery pack in a regular Prius, just to hold us over. In the mean time, they learned a lot from this experience, and hopefully the next PiP will have at least 50+ miles if it's a PHEV, or 100+ miles if it's a BEV.
Toyota is coming out with a new Prius design 'soon', so I'm not surprised that they just shoved a small battery pack in a regular Prius, just to hold us over. In the mean time, they learned a lot from this experience, and hopefully the next PiP will have at least 50+ miles if it's a PHEV, or 100+ miles if it's a BEV.
Nubo
Well-known member
abasile said:
For me personally, the ability to refuel at home easily trumps the hydrogen car (combustion or fuel-cell), without even getting into the issues of hydrogen generation and delivery infrastructure.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Nubo said:
If they only need to sell 1500, I think they can find that many people who think H2 is "it". Remember the goal, and it isn't to succeed in Zero Emissions Vehicles.
Toyota will pursue the lowest cost to comply with the rules so they can sell millions of oil burning cars. An added plus is to say, "see, nobody wanted that Rav4 EV we made, as only 2600 sold in three years!!!"
fooljoe
Well-known member
I'd be surprised if they could make a FCEV for only twice the cost of an EV. 10x is what I heard it to be a few years ago, but I guess that could've changed.TonyWilliams said:
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Toyota projects 42% jump in FY net profit. Having reported its largest annual profit in five years earlier this month, Toyota (TM) has forecast that its FY 2014 net income will jump 42% to ¥1.37T ($13.4B). Meanwhile, the car maker intends to increase the total compensation paid to directors by 28% to ¥1.53B.
cwerdna
Well-known member
^^^
I'd imagine the profit jump is due to the incredible recent weakening of the Japanese yen and Abenomics.
Previously, the yen was too strong and was killing Japanese automakers making their cars in Japan. No doubt, they had to cut costs on their cars to maintain some level of profit/not lose money. But w/the yen having swung the other way, that now helps Japanese automakers a lot.
I've posted/reposted a bunch of stuff about the yen killing them before at http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-price-increase-coming.99827/#post-1414367" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://priuschat.com/threads/ttac-carlos-ghosn-the-yen-is-abnormal-and-we-won%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%84%A2t-live-much-longer-with-that-deviant.98167/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; before.
Graph at http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+us+dollar+in+yen+from+january+1%2C+2008+to+today" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; should give folks an idea who don't track the exchange rate.
I'd imagine the profit jump is due to the incredible recent weakening of the Japanese yen and Abenomics.
Previously, the yen was too strong and was killing Japanese automakers making their cars in Japan. No doubt, they had to cut costs on their cars to maintain some level of profit/not lose money. But w/the yen having swung the other way, that now helps Japanese automakers a lot.
I've posted/reposted a bunch of stuff about the yen killing them before at http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-price-increase-coming.99827/#post-1414367" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://priuschat.com/threads/ttac-carlos-ghosn-the-yen-is-abnormal-and-we-won%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%84%A2t-live-much-longer-with-that-deviant.98167/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; before.
Graph at http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+us+dollar+in+yen+from+january+1%2C+2008+to+today" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; should give folks an idea who don't track the exchange rate.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
While I agree with you, and it should be obvious to any BEV or PHEV owner, my impression is that the whole hydrogen fuel cell push by some car companies is nothing more than a PR move. The idea is to give the impression that they are working on the "technology of the future" while they drag their heels on plug-in EVs and continue to make money with ICE cars. The downsides of hydrogen as a fuel are so enormous that it amazes me that anyone still falls for it. But some do.Nubo said:
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
dgpcolorado said:
I agree. I don't see H ever getting to the mainstream home user unless there is a major breakthrough in storage technology. Commercial big rig applications might a be a viable option but that would take decades to take hold and that is a direct blow to the oil industry which they will not take lying down so add another decade for nothing other than that
cwerdna
Well-known member
Wasn't sure where this should go... this thread seemed semi-appropriate since Rav4 EV is mentioned.
What Do Toyota And Mercedes See In Tesla? A Bit Of Themselves:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2013/06/01/what-do-toyota-and-mercedes-see-in-tesla-a-bit-of-themselves/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm pretty sure the statement about the Rav4 EV being built in Fremont, CA is wrong. http://www.tmmc.ca/media/pdf/tmmc_fact_sheet.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+tesla+build+rav4+ev+woodstock+ontario.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; state it's built in Canada.
What Do Toyota And Mercedes See In Tesla? A Bit Of Themselves:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2013/06/01/what-do-toyota-and-mercedes-see-in-tesla-a-bit-of-themselves/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm pretty sure the statement about the Rav4 EV being built in Fremont, CA is wrong. http://www.tmmc.ca/media/pdf/tmmc_fact_sheet.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+tesla+build+rav4+ev+woodstock+ontario.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; state it's built in Canada.
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