On the Fence, Considering Slightly Used Leaf

[bolshevik36]

Ive been considering this for quite a while. And to be honest I planned to pull the trigger this summer. And by
slightly used I mean 2-3 year old 30k-ish Leaf. But then the Bolt was announced, as was the new extended range Leaf (107miles), and few other interesting prospects among them the Volt. Im 45 miles east of LA in the IE and our weather is pretty temperate tho I wouldnt say ideal for the Leaf.

Ive done my research and I love the Leaf, except for its durability. Ive read the 2014+ have the lizard cell battery where degradation is reduced. My main concern is range going forward in the years to come. Given, my daily avg range is < 40 miles, I figure my leaf can lose over 50% of its 'range' (i dont really care for capacity) and still be a practical daily driver. But I struggle to find any original Leaf owners still owning their Leaf.

Any thoughts? Or Original Leaf Owners (2010? 2011?)? What is youre real life range today?

?

 

[cwerdna]

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it. IE sounds like Inland Empire.

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

The first model year of Leaf was the 2011, that began shipping in December 2010. There are most definitely folks that still have their '11. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=454921#p454921 is about to get rid of his since he missed the 5 year/60K capacity warranty (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192) by almost 2 months.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=20275&p=432849#p432849 lost of lot of capacity in an ideal climate for the Leaf and its degradation. He's the guy at http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/washington-nissan-leaf-owner-celebrates-100-000-all-electric-miles and http://insideevs.com/worlds-first-100000-mile-nissan-leaf-owner-receives-multiple-honors-in-washington/.

You should care about capacity. Less remaining capacity == less range autonomy.

Any thoughts? Or Original Leaf Owners (2010? 2011?)? What is youre real life range today?

That's not a very useful question. One's range will depend on how many miles/kWh they achieve, which can be influenced by many factors: mainly speed and then also HVAC usage, esp. heater. Efficiency will drop when there's rain, slush or snow on the ground. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293 for the range you should get if you went say 35 mph or achieved 6.3 miles/kWh (132 miles on a new battery) vs. 75 mph or achieve 3.0 miles/kWh (~62 miles). And, different people have different tolerances for how close to empty they go before they call it quits.

New Leaf (2011-2015 Leaf and 2016 S) has about 21-22 kWh usable. As capacity drops, there's less of that.

People in the Pacific NW have a great climate for retaining capacity. Those in Phoenix got their batteries cooked: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326. When the Leaf was only ~21 months old, some Phoenicians lost as much as 3 or 4 capacity bars, see http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Capacity_Behavior.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The "Lizard battery" was introduced in the 2015 model year, not 2014, although a few 2014 leafs apparently got one late in the year when they were built. The '13 and '14 leaf seem to have a slightly improved battery compared to the 2011-2012. Not even the Lizard pack is truly heat-resistant in Hot climates. It appears that Nissan's main motivation was to avoid having to replace more packs under warranty, not to really stop heat-related capacity loss - that would require active pack cooling. So Leaf packs come in three degrees of degradation resistance, not two, and the most resistant was installed in all Leafs beginning with the 2015 model year.

I would have replied to this earlier, but I've decide to give lower priority to posts that contain the phrase "pull the trigger."

 

[RonDawg]

I figure my leaf can lose over 50% of its 'range' (i dont really care for capacity) and still be a practical daily driver. But I struggle to find any original Leaf owners still owning their Leaf.

Any thoughts? Or Original Leaf Owners (2010? 2011?)? What is youre real life range today?

I would dare say that most Leafs were leased, not purchased, particularly starting in late 2012 when the leases became really attractive. The leases had unrealistically high residuals, making them financially impractical to buy out.

My 2012 dropped its first bar only 6 weeks shy of 3 years, and with less than 27k miles. My commute is short so I could lose half of the battery capacity and still use it as a daily driver, though nothing else.

I had considered extending the lease, but then I got an irresistible deal on an eGolf. But if the eGolf were to be too expensive, I would not have hesitated getting another Leaf to replace the first if I could get a similarly good deal.

 

[SalisburySam]

I still have and love my purchased 2012SL. Got it in Feb 2012 and recently lost the 12th capacity bar at 4 years and a bit over 9,000 miles. Yes, it is a low mileage vehicle and working well for me. My trips are typically short and do-able even with the heater on full blast with no pre-heat. On a roughly 50/50 mix of highway and surface streets, I easily make 40-mile round-trip treks and have 3 charge bars left, without the heater. Warm weather air conditioning seems to lower range only a very small amount and has not affected any trip.

Would I get another LEAF? Maybe, at some point, but not a 2013-2016 model. My 2012SL does everything I ask of it, and I love the fit, finish, acceleration, and electronic brake all of which seemed to have deteriorated or actually went away in Smyrna models. The 2017's are a strong potential but only if they really, really can go 130+ miles at highway speeds with climate control on. If not, no point.

So what do I not like? "Touch OK to accept."

This is just my sitch, YMMV.

 

[bolshevik36]

Hey guys so I hopefully fixed my profile to reflect my location, plus I really appreciate any input/advice any of you can give!

A) in Rancho Cucamonga CA.

B) My daily commute is actually 35.4 miles (17.7ish one way) of mostly freeway miles at speeds of 65-75 max.

C) For the most part, I dont expect to be able to charge at my job(s) destination.


I guess my main concern is going forward, how long can i expect my Leaf to provide the adequate mileage to be my daily driver and of course if not, how much will it cost to upgrade pack ?

 

[user 10599]

The below article should help you figure that out.

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss

Using Riverside as a close approximation, you should have just under 50% of your capacity after 10 years. For your commute, that is probably going to be cutting it rather tight with freeway speeds and air conditioning. And you have to remember, when buying used, you don't know where the car was or how it was driven or maintained, so you should assume the car is a little worse off than what the article would suggest. I would suspect a 8-9 year life for it to be realistic. So if you buy one that is 2 years old, you could plan on it working for you another 6-7 years.

Is that long enough for you? Most car buyers only keep their cars less than 5, so it may be a very good choice.

Also, range can be renewed with a battery replacement for about $6k. Perhaps by the time it needs it, the cost will be less. I hope so, but don't have any credible info to assume so. And a $6k investment to restore range to full and start another 8-9 year life on the car could be a bargain if you plan to keep it really long term. If not, then you have to consider the cars value at the time you make the investment and most would not choose to do that.

 

[DanCar]

Because of California requirement of auto manufacturers that they sell a certain percentage of zero emission vehicles, you might find the new price very interesting. Currently the spark EVs are going for around $140 a month lease with no money down. The Kia Soul EV has longer range and is about $255 per month. https://plus.google.com/u/1/+DanielCardenas/posts/ADHQXip1fqK
If you factor in the California rebate which varies based on your income and the gas savings, some people consider the new electric cars free. Currently no lease deal on long range Leaf that I'm aware of. If you do the math comparing used to new you will see that new is a much better deal.

 

[bolshevik36]

Hey guys thanks for the info.

Im buying used because 2013 Leafs seem to be a BARGAIN at $8-9k at high teens/low20k miles. I figure on that price i could pay it off in 3-4 years and enjoy it under Nissan warranty for a cpl years. I heard 2013's are at the minimum statistically better than previous models, is that true? Also I heard I want the S model since It comes with a resistive(?) heater which apparently makes the AC more efficient and considering my area the AC will be of main use over heater. Thoughts?

TBH if it lasted me until 2023 as a daily driver-commuter and then could serve as my local driver (all my local errands/groceries/etc) another 5 years until 2028 thats great considering the initial investment. Also by 2021 (the year Nissan warranty would expire assuming <60k miles) there should be a plethora of options (fingers crossed) should i choose to upgrade.

 

[bolshevik36]

Also what do you guys think of 3rd party battery packs down the road? Feasible and likely?

 

[cwerdna]

Im buying used because 2013 Leafs seem to be a BARGAIN at $8-9k at high teens/low20k miles. I figure on that price i could pay it off in 3-4 years and enjoy it under Nissan warranty for a cpl years. I heard 2013's are at the minimum statistically better than previous models, is that true? Also I heard I want the S model since It comes with a resistive(?) heater which apparently makes the AC more efficient and considering my area the AC will be of main use over heater. Thoughts?

TBH if it lasted me until 2023 as a daily driver-commuter and then could serve as my local driver (all my local errands/groceries/etc) another 5 years until 2028 thats great considering the initial investment. Also by 2021 (the year Nissan warranty would expire assuming <60k miles) there should be a plethora of options (fingers crossed) should i choose to upgrade.

I'm confused by your statement about the year 2021. What car are you talking about? The basic warranty is 3 years/36K miles from original in-service date. There is the 5 year/60K capacity warranty on '11 to '15 Leafs. Powertrain and EV system warranties are also 5 years/60K miles. You can d/l the warranty booklet from https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/navigation/manualsGuide.

S trim has only a resistive heater. Yes, supposedly the hybrid heat pump heater on the '13+ SV and SL have a slightly less efficient AC. I ruled out the '13 S long ago since it had no nav, no cruise control, no Carwings (now NissanConnect), a resistive heater, and a worse stereo than the base SV/SL stereo, etc. Remember, there's almost no free waste heat from EVs. You need to use energy to heat the cabin.

It's a pain in the butt to set the charging timers on the S (via the buttons to the left of the steering wheel) vs. the touchscreen on the SV and SL. The charging timer on the S has less functionality than the SV and SL (e.g. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=331064#p331064). I don't follow this closely as I don't care, esp. since I ruled out the S twice (when I leased my 1st Leaf and when I bought used.)

I enjoy the Bose stereo (part of the premium package on SV and SL). I LOVE the Around View Monitor, also part of premium package. You can't get the premium package on the S. I really like having the 6.x kW OBC. That's standard on the '13+ SV and SL. To get the 6,x kW OBC on the S trim, you need to pay for the "charge package".

Also what do you guys think of 3rd party battery packs down the road? Feasible and likely?

Maybe... but not that likely, IMHO. Seems the market for them would be too small and not worth it to spend the $ on a car w/such crap resale value. See my replies to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=20452 on why I felt that Leaf wasn't worth $8,990 even though the owner paid nothing for their replacement battery. Given that, doesn't seem worth it to shell out $5500 + tax and labor (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168) to replace it... What would be a good price and would would the value of the Leaf be then?

 

[jjeff]

Hey guys thanks for the info.

Im buying used because 2013 Leafs seem to be a BARGAIN at $8-9k at high teens/low20k miles. I figure on that price i could pay it off in 3-4 years and enjoy it under Nissan warranty for a cpl years. I heard 2013's are at the minimum statistically better than previous models, is that true? Also I heard I want the S model since It comes with a resistive(?) heater which apparently makes the AC more efficient and considering my area the AC will be of main use over heater. Thoughts?

TBH if it lasted me until 2023 as a daily driver-commuter and then could serve as my local driver (all my local errands/groceries/etc) another 5 years until 2028 thats great considering the initial investment. Also by 2021 (the year Nissan warranty would expire assuming <60k miles) there should be a plethora of options (fingers crossed) should i choose to upgrade.

If I could have got a '13 for 8-9k I would have jumped on it. Unfortunately in my market '13's go for more like $11.5-12.5k with '12's being almost $4k less, and the better SL model too. For that reason I ended up with a '12 SL and while it has all the features Cwerdna mentioned, I really really like my '13S better. I never use cruise, don't use nav, could care less about CarWings and really only listen to silence(don't use the stereo much) although I admit the standard stereo(not even the Bose) sounds better on the '12 than the '13S. What I like better about the '13S is:

SOC% on car display
Ability to NOT use heater when climate control is on(although I've since ordered a mod for my '12 so I'll be able to finally turn off the damn heater without totally turning off the climate control).
6.6Kw charger(twice as fast as the '12) although this was a option for my '13S
Easy to use 80% charge option
No nag screen on EVERY power up
Dark interior, 12's are all extremely light and prone to dirt, etc. not to mention dash reflections on the windshield from the light dash
Much better regen, I hardly use the breaks on my '13 but frequently use them(and friction at that) on the '12
Once put in ECO mode it stays there, the '12 exits ECO EVERY time I turn the car off(another PIA quirk of the '12)

What I like better about the '12:
Much nicer display, more pixels(clearer) and larger.

Being a '12 it also has a resistive heater like my '13S but overall I prefer the heater and such on the '13S vs '12SL. In hindsight living in a cold climate like MN I probably should have got the heat pump heater(on the '13) but then it would have required purchasing the more expensive SV/SL models which I wasn't in a position to do at the time.

Note the range is a fair amount better on the '13 but to be fair the '12 is down 2 bars(SOH% in the low 80s) and it was a CA car(registered in Newbury Park) which may be a hot area. Setting my '13 at 80%(what I generally use) gives me about the same range as '12 set to 100% charge(using timer).

 

[DanCar]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102878_consumer-reports-avoid-buying-used-2014-bmw-i3-electric-cars
According to that article the 2013 has worse than average reliability.

 

[bolshevik36]

Hey guys thanks for the info.

Im buying used because 2013 Leafs seem to be a BARGAIN at $8-9k at high teens/low20k miles. I figure on that price i could pay it off in 3-4 years and enjoy it under Nissan warranty for a cpl years. I heard 2013's are at the minimum statistically better than previous models, is that true? Also I heard I want the S model since It comes with a resistive(?) heater which apparently makes the AC more efficient and considering my area the AC will be of main use over heater. Thoughts?

TBH if it lasted me until 2023 as a daily driver-commuter and then could serve as my local driver (all my local errands/groceries/etc) another 5 years until 2028 thats great considering the initial investment. Also by 2021 (the year Nissan warranty would expire assuming <60k miles) there should be a plethora of options (fingers crossed) should i choose to upgrade.

If I could have got a '13 for 8-9k I would have jumped on it. Unfortunately in my market '13's go for more like $11.5-12.5k with '12's being almost $4k less, and the better SL model too. For that reason I ended up with a '12 SL and while it has all the features Cwerdna mentioned, I really really like my '13S better. I never use cruise, don't use nav, could care less about CarWings and really only listen to silence(don't use the stereo much) although I admit the standard stereo(not even the Bose) sounds better on the '12 than the '13S. What I like better about the '13S is:

SOC% on car display
Ability to NOT use heater when climate control is on(although I've since ordered a mod for my '12 so I'll be able to finally turn off the damn heater without totally turning off the climate control).
6.6Kw charger(twice as fast as the '12) although this was a option for my '13S
Easy to use 80% charge option
No nag screen on EVERY power up
Dark interior, 12's are all extremely light and prone to dirt, etc. not to mention dash reflections on the windshield from the light dash
Much better regen, I hardly use the breaks on my '13 but frequently use them(and friction at that) on the '12
Once put in ECO mode it stays there, the '12 exits ECO EVERY time I turn the car off(another PIA quirk of the '12)

What I like better about the '12:
Much nicer display, more pixels(clearer) and larger.

Being a '12 it also has a resistive heater like my '13S but overall I prefer the heater and such on the '13S vs '12SL. In hindsight living in a cold climate like MN I probably should have got the heat pump heater(on the '13) but then it would have required purchasing the more expensive SV/SL models which I wasn't in a position to do at the time.

Note the range is a fair amount better on the '13 but to be fair the '12 is down 2 bars(SOH% in the low 80s) and it was a CA car(registered in Newbury Park) which may be a hot area. Setting my '13 at 80%(what I generally use) gives me about the same range as '12 set to 100% charge(using timer).

Hey guys again thanks for all the answers, all of you. Getting a lot of perspectives, from what I had read previously I was already sold on the S tbh. To me it doesnt make a lot of sense to pay for a lot of extras Id hardly use. I literally want a bare bones (where i can customize some things along the way, maybe wheels/sound?) electric car to use as a daily driver/commuter. To me the S just sounds like thats it. I was planning on getting a S with QC btw if I didnt mention it.

So far Im still going with a 2013 S maybe 14 depending on whats out there.


I said 2021 because isnt the Leaf warranty 8 yr/ 100,000 miles on the battery, and the 5 year you mention a 'confidence' perk for those worried about losing too much capacity?

Can i ask, how does capacity affect range and vice versa?

 

[jjeff]

Can i ask, how does capacity affect range and vice versa?

Not sure what you mean by this but I'll take a stab at it. Say if a battery is down to 80% capacity it should have roughly 20% less range at a full charge. If you got 80 miles with a new 100% battery, with a older 80% battery that range would be down to 64 miles(distance when 100% multiplied by .8 because it's now 80% of new).
Now an advantage IMO of the '13 models is they have the handy 80% option(or also called long life mode, not to be confused by my 80% example above). Enabling it will stop charging your battery at 80% of it's current capacity, so if your battery was new(100%) you'd have the same range as my first example after the battery had degraded to 80%. As your battery degrades and becomes 80% of it's original capacity, using the 80% mode should give you a maximum range of ~51 miles(64 miles x .8).

If your OK with the more basic features of a '13S I'd strongly suggest it, especially for the prices your talking. The resistive heater is kind of a downside but truthfully even living in cold MN I can get a little over 60 miles charged to 100% using the heater constantly, but that range drops close to 40 when sub zero, something I doubt you get in CA Using the heater above freezing while maybe not as economical as a heat pump newer model, still doesn't effect the range as much as you'd think.

Not sure if you've checked into it but before looking for any used vehicle you should purchase Bluetooth dongle(not much more than $10 on Amazon or Ebay) and LeafSpy(paid or even more basic free version) to check the battery SOH%(state of health) which is handy for comparing vehicles and tells you the actual capacity of the battery, something you really wouldn't know without LeafSpy.

 

[bolshevik36]

Oh wow, I have to read up on Leafspy it seems, is there any particular thread you can point me to?

Thx again

 

[jjeff]

A handy range chart: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=4295
The master LeafSpy thread: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285&hilit=leaf+spy
The Bluetooth adapter I purchased from Amazon that works well and is very small, note doesn't work with iPhones, for iPhones you need a slightly more expensive WiFi adapter:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PJPHEBO?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

edit: looks like to get the Amazon link you have to copy and paste it to your address bar, guess you can't directly post a Amazon link :?