people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

[marshallinwash]

I'm not going back, but I can see where working chargers are going to be a big problem if they can't get these zombie attacks on the cables under control.

If the state governments would mandate the scrape yards mail out checks for copper scrap that would help a lot.

 

[Joey21]

We own our first EV just purchased a month ago. We've put 1500+ miles on it. Daily driver plus I've used it to cross our state x3 times to help my elderly parents. Our other car, an SUV has barely been driven since. At least once every 10 days to keep the battery up.

We had used our employer's Leafs several times and really liked them. I think going forward we'll continue to own a long distance big car (V6 SUV) that occasionally gets driven and an EV that does the daily driving. Wife and I carpool. Maybe at some point in the future the SUV will be replaced by a PHEV.

We keep cars so long that the situation when we buy our next vehicle could be vastly different than it is now. The vehicle we replaced was passed down to our eldest. That vehicle was 25+ years old since we bought it new. ~330K miles.

Our "big vehicle" (garaged) is a decade old and like new. 145K miles. Will probably run it to 250K miles.

 

[frontrangeleaf]

Hmmmm. We have 3 very different vehicles, which we use intentionally in quite different ways - "right tool for the job" kind of thing.

Looking forward as I near retirement, we will have some decisions to make re downsizing, perhaps into just one car. A PHEV might be a better fit as an all-in-one today, but less certain about a few years from now. We'll see.

Today we take very few long distance over-the-road trips. We mostly fly when we're going somewhere. I have both ICE cars on battery minders for this reason, as they are both specialty vehicles these days - the Leaf does almost all of our daily driving.

 

[Chad E. Mo]

I have both ICE cars on battery minders for this reason, as they are both specialty vehicles these days - the Leaf does almost all of our daily driving.

Same here, my ICE car has a small solar panel keeping the battery topped up. I've logged only a few hundred miles on it over the past year. I have to remind myself to drive the ICE one a month to keep the brakes and whatnot in proper order.

 

[cornbinder89]

Hmmmm. We have 3 very different vehicles, which we use intentionally in quite different ways - "right tool for the job" kind of thing.

Looking forward as I near retirement, we will have some decisions to make re downsizing, perhaps into just one car. A PHEV might be a better fit as an all-in-one today, but less certain about a few years from now. We'll see.

Today we take very few long distance over-the-road trips. We mostly fly when we're going somewhere. I have both ICE cars on battery minders for this reason, as they are both specialty vehicles these days - the Leaf does almost all of our daily driving.

If you are like me, and take only 1 or 2 long trips a year but live near where you can rent a car, and all electric would still make more sense and rent for the one or two trips a year you can't make it in the electric.
PHEV carry a significant penalty all the time, in weight and range. You can't get very far on battery alone, and have to move the engine when you do run on electric, so you don't get the mileage of a non plug in hybrid and you don't get the range of a full electric
It is proven that most that own them don't bother to plug in even when they can, as the range in electric is low enough that they have to use the engine anyway. If they can get the electric range up to 150 or more miles when running on electric only then a PHEV would start to make more sense.
My nearest car rental is about 55 miles, so couldn't take my 2015 Leaf there and back to rent, if I could, I would sell at least one of my ICE vehicles.

 

[Caliwish]

I love my leaf and my wife has an ice car. When we retire, we will be downsizing to one vehicle. We plan to be traveling in a motorhome and pulling said vehicle. Right now there are no bevs that can be flat towed, but there are hybrids and phevs from Jeep, Ford and Lincoln that can be. My evil plan is to flat tow a phev and plug it in at the RV park which will give us free mileage. Eventually, we may stop that form of travel and switch to pure bev again

 

[cornbinder89]

I love my leaf and my wife has an ice car. When we retire, we will be downsizing to one vehicle. We plan to be traveling in a motorhome and pulling said vehicle. Right now there are no bevs that can be flat towed, but there are hybrids and phevs from Jeep, Ford and Lincoln that can be. My evil plan is to flat tow a phev and plug it in at the RV park which will give us free mileage. Eventually, we may stop that form of travel and switch to pure bev again

Why is flat-towing a requirement? Tow dollies aren't that expensive and allow towing a Leaf and that would still allow all the benefits of electric at the campground.
I see the two things (flat towing and EV) as completely separate issues.
When I bought my used Leaf, I purchased a used tow dolly at the same time. It worked out to be the cheapest way to move the Leaf from where I bought it to my house, and I have the dolly if I ever need to transport it.
You can also get electric brakes on the dolly for not much money, to add a remote braking device that applies the flat towed vehicle brakes cost in the $1000's and must be set up each time the vehicle is towed.

 

[Caliwish]

Why is flat-towing a requirement? Tow dollies aren't that expensive and allow towing a Leaf and that would still allow all the benefits of electric at the campground.
I see the two things (flat towing and EV) as completely separate issues.
When I bought my used Leaf, I purchased a used tow dolly at the same time. It worked out to be the cheapest way to move the Leaf from where I bought it to my house, and I have the dolly if I ever need to transport it.
You can also get electric brakes on the dolly for not much money, to add a remote braking device that applies the flat towed vehicle brakes cost in the $1000's and must be set up each time the vehicle is towed.

Good point but flat towing is more convenient/ less cumbersome than dolly towing. We do alot of state park camping which has limited space for the motorhome. I rarely see anyone use a dolly rving. If someone comes out with a bev that can disconnect the regen in a bev, I’d be happy to buy one. Rivian stated that their vehicles could be flat towed at one point but then walked it back.

 

[aqn]

PHEV carry a significant penalty all the time, in weight and range. You can't get very far on battery alone, and have to move the engine when you do run on electric, so you don't get the mileage of a non plug in hybrid and you don't get the range of a full electric

"Very far" is subjective. Your "very far" might be my "road trip". Certainly, in Kelly Blue Book's list of PHEV ranges, almost every PHEV will serve me just fine for my daily driving (except for pathological "Look Ma, I'm a hybrid" cases like the Ferraris!).

I can't find a convenient list of PHEVs' weight, so I went to autonation and list all available PHEVs then Google search for "[vehicle make and model] weight". Here's what I got. PHEVs are hardly weightier than other vehicles. I'm even willing to bet that average PHEV weight is less than if not far less than that of EVs.

BMW i3 range extender	3309
Hyundai Ioniq PHEV	3417
Chevy Volt	3543
Toyota Prius Prime	3571
Audi A3 Sportback e-tron PHEV	3616
Hyundai Sonata PHEV	3814
Ford C-Max Energi	3899
Honda Clarity PHEV	4059
Mitsubishi Outlander phev	4651
BMW X5 PHEV	5573

That said, there is no doubt that the PHEV suffers more complexity and hence probably worse reliability, also probably worse performance, in exchange for the "best of both worlds" use.

It is proven that most that own them don't bother to plug in even when they can,

A reference or two would be nice. FWIW, the AI Overview for a Google search of "what percentage of phev owners charge at home" claims that "According to the U.S. Department of Energy, about 80% of electric vehicle (EV) charging takes place at home. This includes all-electric vehicles and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs)." I couldn't find the exact page that says that about PHEVs though.

My nearest car rental is about 55 miles, ...

There is not a vehicle or vehicle configuration that will cater to all usage scenarios. That's not a problem specific to PHEVs.

 

[cornbinder89]

I still fail to see the problem. A tow dolly and car combo is no longer than a car and tow-bar. The only thing I can see is that a Jeep type vehicle will handle rough ground better than a car dolly. When you consider that all PHEV's will have the battery underneath I would suggest that towing either in rough ground may not be a good idea.

A reference or two would be nice. FWIW, the AI Overview for a Google search of "what percentage of phev owners charge at home" claims that "According to the U.S. Department of Energy, about 80% of electric vehicle (EV) charging takes place at home. This includes all-electric vehicles and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs)." I couldn't find the exact page that says that about PHEVs though.


There is not a vehicle or vehicle configuration that will cater to all usage scenarios. That's not a problem specific to PHEVs.

I am not saying PHEV's are different than EV's like the Leaf, only that the advantages as they are right now don't lend themselves to the posters requirements very well.
I don't have a citation for the quote about people not plugging them in, a valid critique, but have read it somewhere, just don't have it at my fingertips.
The Poster had said he was happy with his Leaf but was thinking of downsizing to one car and a RV and lamented that he couldn't find a PHEV that could be flat towed.
Rather than replace the Leaf he is happy with, for the 1-2 long trips he takes a year, and not being able to find a PHEV that could be flat towed, I suggest holding on to what he has, and solutions for the two "problems" that caused him to look elsewhere.
My situation is I can't make it to a car rental and back on a single charge, I am and was aware of that when I bought my car. If I get a 40 KW batttery installed, I could, and eliminate one of my ICE vehicles and rent a car for my few long trips and still be money ahead.

 

[cornbinder89]

Here is one:
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...en-t-plugged-in-as-often-as-regulators-assume
There are others, not sure how many are based on the European study and how many have been done on independent studies.

 

[css28]

If you are like me, and take only 1 or 2 long trips a year but live near where you can rent a car, and all electric would still make more sense and rent for the one or two trips a year you can't make it in the electric.
PHEV carry a significant penalty all the time, in weight and range. You can't get very far on battery alone, and have to move the engine when you do run on electric, so you don't get the mileage of a non plug in hybrid and you don't get the range of a full electric

Our Clarity delivers about the same highway mpg as our 2011 Prius did (45-48 in mild weather). This time of year I average about 55 miles battery range.
I'm not convinced that the hauling the engine around is any more onerous than hauling the additional 60+ kWh of battery that I wouldn't regularly use.

 

[cornbinder89]

The PHEV Prius does carry a penalty when you look at the stats for the PHEV and the regular Prius. If 55 miles is all you need then even a 24 KWH Leaf would do. IIRC (and stand to be corrected) it is somewhere around 46 MPG on the PHEV and 49on the std. Std has a bigger fuel tank also.
The point I was making which seamed to be lost in the "what ifs, and if I do that" is with a little thinking "out of the box" that you don't need one car to do everything no matter how infrequent, but rather concentrate on the 99% of your needs, and look for options for the 1% that don't fit.
Having a car year around that is less of a good fit for 2 trip annually that your present car doesn't work or fit well, doesn't mean you have to replace it with a compromise and live with that year around.
If you take long trips weekly then one of the PHEV's might work or even a plain hybrid might be a better solution.
Buying a ICE truck so you can flat tow it behind an RV and being stuck with it the rest of the year doesn't seam like a good compromise to me. There are no "cars" that I know of that can be flat towed. Some "cross overs" might, Full size trucks and SUV's yes.

 

[marshallinwash]

Here is one:
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...en-t-plugged-in-as-often-as-regulators-assume
There are others, not sure how many are based on the European study and how many have been done on independent studies.

Europe PHEVs didn't get plugged in due to these were pretty much company cars that offer their employees a company gas card. This is a case where companies where exploiting a loophole in the government regulations.

The US market is different. From my own experience and walking the neighborhood, it would say almost all of the PHEVs where getting plugged in at home. I suspect the others may have been able to plug in at work.

 

[jjeff]

Europe PHEVs didn't get plugged in due to these were pretty much company cars that offer their employees a company gas card. This is a case where companies where exploiting a loophole in the government regulations.

The US market is different. From my own experience and walking the neighborhood, it would say almost all of the PHEVs where getting plugged in at home. I suspect the others may have been able to plug in at work.

As a homeowner with 2 PHEVs in the garage, a Hyundai Ionic PHEV with an average 30 miles EV range and 50+ MPG after that and a Toyota Rav4 Prime with an average 50-mile EV range summer, 40-mile EV range in winter and ~40 MPG ICE I can say with certainty that both are plugged in whenever home and 99% of the time leave the garage at 100% charge. Note before these 2 vehicles we had (2) 50-60 mile 24kwh Leafs that were also plugged in whenever home up to 80-100% charge at departure. Both vehicles are also plugged in whenever we have access to free public charging but they are extremely rare in my state.

Would I like a longer EV range on our PHEVs, hell YES! The Ionic has a pathetic <10kwh battery but is very efficient hence its 30-mile EV range. The Rav4 has a more reasonable-sized battery(~16kwh).
Note, even at 100% charge both our PHEVs burn some gas almost every day due to the Ionic being driven ~50 miles daily with no opportunity to charge and the Rav4 50-120 miles but with the first miles using no gas, the Ionic averages around 100 MPG and the Rav4 around 70 MPG, much better than an equivalent ICE vehicle or even a hybrid(non-plugin) vehicle.
We could have purchased a couple 200+ mile BEVs that would have covered 98% of our daily driving but then we'd still have to scramble for the occasional 500-1000 mile trips and having driven the old Leaf BEVs where if you ever do forget to plug it in or the charger fails for whatever reason, we both wanted a vehicle with a build in backup.

For us PHEVs were probably our best choice and I probably would have paid more for a larger battery and for sure a faster charger, both have a pathetic 3.8kw charger which works fine for overnight charging to 100% but don't fair as well for opportunity charging or even coming home with a flat battery and wanting to run errands an hour after coming home from work but it is what it is and we'd do it again. Possibly not the $30k+ Leafs that were sold for $11k for the both of them and had minimal mileage but they were our gateway to EVs, well unless you count our old Hybrid Prius that had a less than 1-mile EV-only range but still managed around 40 MPG town and ~50 MPG on our long trips.

I'm guessing anyone who tracks down a PHEV(they aren't that easy to find) and pays the extra money they command will plug them in whenever they can, of course if they are a company car I'd guess that would drop down dramatically.

 

[goldbrick]

I have a Rav4 Prime that is driven nearly 100% in EV mode around town. I live in Boulder so it's only 5 miles from one end of town to another which makes it easy. If I drive home to see my parents in the midWest or go on a roadtrip the ICE is used.

In my case, I really like the hybrid drive train on the Rav4 and the biggest difference between the hybrid model and PHEV model is the size of the battery and the PHEV has an on board charger. I think the electric motor and electronics are also a bit beefier so the car can go on EV power alone but it's quite similar to the hybrid model AFAICT.

It's not a perfect solution but it works for us. Probably 80% of the trips are in EV mode although I'd guess only about 20% of the miles are done in EV mode due to the ICE being used only for trips > 300 miles usually.

 

[marshallinwash]

I use to own a Hyundai Sonata PHEV and the gas engine was totally unreliable. Got rid of it and got a used Leaf.

I've been to almost every tourist site in Washington state. Owning a gas car doesn't help much as we don't drive more than 15 miles one way any more.

Anyhow, I can rent a gas car if necessary. The rental locations are only 15 minutes away.

 

[GentleGiant]

I still fail to see the problem. A tow dolly and car combo is no longer than a car and tow-bar. The only thing I can see is that a Jeep type vehicle will handle rough ground better than a car dolly. When you consider that all PHEV's will have the battery underneath I would suggest that towing either in rough ground may not be a good idea.

I am not saying PHEV's are different than EV's like the Leaf, only that the advantages as they are right now don't lend themselves to the posters requirements very well.
I don't have a citation for the quote about people not plugging them in, a valid critique, but have read it somewhere, just don't have it at my fingertips.
The Poster had said he was happy with his Leaf but was thinking of downsizing to one car and a RV and lamented that he couldn't find a PHEV that could be flat towed.
Rather than replace the Leaf he is happy with, for the 1-2 long trips he takes a year, and not being able to find a PHEV that could be flat towed, I suggest holding on to what he has, and solutions for the two "problems" that caused him to look elsewhere.
My situation is I can't make it to a car rental and back on a single charge, I am and was aware of that when I bought my car. If I get a 40 KW batttery installed, I could, and eliminate one of my ICE vehicles and rent a car for my few long trips and still be money ahead.

In the UK at least, PHEVS got a huge tax break, so companies were buying them in shed-loads and giving them out to their drivers who had nowhere to plug them in to charge - and in most cases werent interested in charging them.
At 3-5 years old, these PHEVS were going to the auction houses with 100K + miles and 0 miles on the battery.

 

[aqn]

[...] you don't need one car to do everything no matter how infrequent, but rather concentrate on the 99% of your needs, and look for options for the 1% that don't fit.

Amen and alleluia to that!

 

[Joey21]

Hmmmm. We have 3 very different vehicles, which we use intentionally in quite different ways - "right tool for the job" kind of thing.

Looking forward as I near retirement, we will have some decisions to make re downsizing, perhaps into just one car. A PHEV might be a better fit as an all-in-one today, but less certain about a few years from now. We'll see.

Today we take very few long distance over-the-road trips. We mostly fly when we're going somewhere. I have both ICE cars on battery minders for this reason, as they are both specialty vehicles these days - the Leaf does almost all of our daily driving.

Definitely - everything changes over time. I have flown twice since the mid-90s. Both times for work. If I never get on another plane, I'd be just fine with that but a few destinations my wife and I want to visit requires a plane. No bridges yet to Europe. I flew many times for a job in the early 90s. Not for me.