Poll: Which PHEV or Extended Range is best Leaf companion?

[Deleted member 1622]

Point well taken, davewill, we all have different uses for the 2nd car...
To answer your question, "Why bother?" I'm a little surprised that any Leaf owner would ask that. How many times have we heard that from other drivers when we explain that we just bought a car for 35k that only goes 75 miles a day and can't travel out of state?
We bother with a PHEV because it's still electric driving, and electric driving in any form is better than burning gas (I love my 2007 Prius, too, but not so much that I wouldn't trade it in immediately for a PHEV (maybe even the small-ranged plugin Prius) if I had the money.
I'm a little puzzled and worried that "None of the above" is currently winning this poll (I know, small N). If Leaf owners, of all consumers, are turning their noses up at the PHEVs, then that market segment is in more trouble than I thought.
Of course my mouth waters, too, for the Beemers and Audis, but let's be honest, the luxury cars are not going to take electric driving to the masses. It will be one of the carmakers in this poll, and only when they bring the price down to where the Leaf is now. I want to see electric go mainstream before I'm a senior citizen, and these PHEVs, even with their limitations, are the best way to get there.
JG

I get that the Volt's all-electric range beats all the others... but if I think about what I would actually use the Volt for if it was the 2nd car to the Leaf, it would not be for my around-town driving (I would use the Leaf for that). The trips I would take with it would almost all be long-range or road trips... so the gas mileage post-electric range does become an issue. ...

If it's all long haul driving, then why get a PHEV at all? Just get a Prius and be done with it. But if you're like my family, that "2nd" car is one person's daily driver, or is the utility car used when car #1 is busy and will see plenty of around town miles.

 

[RegGuheert]

I voted Volt. IMO, it is the only one of the group that is well-proven and clearly supported by its manufacturer and dealers. In fact, we came very close to purchasing a Volt instead of a LEAF last year, mainly because Aerovironment fumble the ball so badly on Nissan's behalf, I didn't want to deal with Nissan. The salesman at the local Nissan dealership recovered the fumble and took it in for the score. We're happy with our choice.

But, as others have said, we already have a hybrid for long trips and a couple of ICE-powered vans when we need to haul our children to college, etc. If our Honda Civic Hybrid dies, which I seriously doubt it will barring a crash, I don't think we will replace it at all. I just don't feel like spending more money purchasing internal-cumbustion engines if I can help it. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I appear to be the sole vote for an Outlander sort of PHEV. The reason is that the ICE car I would need to replace is my '96 4WD Jeep Cherokee (~23 mpg on average, higher on long trips). Since I already have a LEAF, the Volt wouldn't do me much good as an EV (no second driver to provide for, so only one car is used at a time). And it wouldn't handle the snow conditions or very rough roads for which I keep the Jeep. The Volt is also cramped and uncomfortable for a tall person to get into and to drive for an extended period (I've done that), although I could live with it.

Not that I could afford it, but someday I'd like to have a 4WD PHEV to replace the Jeep. Otherwise, I'd be better off with a high mpg Prius for the long trips the LEAF can't make. But getting up my steep, curved 400 foot driveway in winter, when I haven't had time to shovel it, is my priority for the second vehicle. If gas were $8/gallon I'd have to weigh gas mileage more highly.

 

[evnow]

If Volt was a 5 seater crossover, I would have voted for it. But Outlander is what I'm looking forward to now - since c-max Energi just didn't have enough utility.

 

[Deleted member 1622]

I agree with the Outlander fans, except for their recent battery problems and recall. It seems clear now that they will not release an Outlander in 2014 in the U.S. ... personally I would not be an early adopter on a car that had to recall its first 4,000 units (no matter how many assurances the company gives), I would give the car one or two years in production. But it's definitely irritating to have to sit on our hands and wait, or opt for one of today's PHEVs with no 4WD and short electric ranges.
The Volt is my favorite based on range, but the cramped space is a problem when you have two dogs and carry a lot of stuff on roadtrips. So I voted PIP, since I am a biased current Prius owner.

JG

 

[JouleThief]

I agree with the Outlander fans, except for their recent battery problems and recall. It seems clear now that they will not release an Outlander in 2014 in the U.S. ... I would give the car one or two years in production.

I agree it will likely be delayed, but highly doubt it will completely miss 2014 all-together. I think we'll see it here by next spring or summer at the latest.

A couple things to consider, though. First, by the time it is released here it will already have a lot of road time under it's belt (at least 1yr) in Japan, the Netherlands, and possibly other markets in Europe, Asia, Australia, and New Zealand. So any other teething issues should be well known by then. US is definitely not the test market for this vehicle. I think Mitsu knows this market probably has the most potential with our love of SUVs so they want to iron out the wrinkles elsewhere before bringing it here (JMO).

Second, the battery is essentially identical to the 16kWh pack that has been used in the i-MiEV for a few years now which has proven very reliable. The same battery plant makes both, and both were affected by the process change that caused the battery defects. Overall, the i-MiEV battery has enjoyed a good track record so far. It was unfortunate timing that the process problem occurred during the Outlander launch, but the fundamental battery design has already been well proven.

I do get why some will have reservations about the Outlander, but Mitsu does have time to earn back confidence before it arrives on our shores.

 

[Deleted member 1622]

I hope you're right and Mitsu does make it in 2014... however, I think "process problem" as an explanation for the car's problem is a bit of a gloss. It's hard to know when you're an outsider what is a small bug and what is an indication of overall poor production.
If their factory workers did indeed drop battery cells on the ground and then pick the damaged ones up and put them back on the line, what other steps in the few thousand steps along the assembly line were given the same sloppy treatment?
Their separate recall to reprogram the ECU and other electronics point to the fact that the battery bug was not an isolated incident.
All that said, I am a fan of any PHEV and want to see them make a comeback, but they should start a roadshow in the U.S. or something beyond the usual to win back consumer confidence.

JG

 

[JouleThief]

Well, I agree recalls on a fresh launch are never a good thing. But it's not unheard of either. FWIW I don't think Mitsu has glossed over the battery issue. On the contrary I think they've been very transparent, especially for a Japanese company that risks losing face. In this case they provided a very detailed explanation in the results of their investigation. They also performed experiments and duplicated the defect to prove the root cause was correct. They've allowed press directly into their factory to show the problems and solutions, that is not something typically done by the Japanese. Plus Mitsu's been under the spotlight from the Japanese Ministry for recall delays. With this much heat and attention, I just don't believe Mitsu would attempt a snow job here, way too risky for them.

I also don't think there is much to correlate between the battery recall and ECU recall. One was a manufacturing process issue while the other was a software code bug. Both result in vehicle malfunction, but the root cause & behavior behind each are quite different. It would be like if you bought a new computer and got a bad battery which was traced back to the battery manufacturer and then later found a bug in your BIOS or OS and tried to relate the two. The programmer for the ECU has nothing to do with the battery assembly line worker. Two different factories and, technically, two different companies in this case.

But if it's not an isolated incident and rather, as you suggest, a systematic quality control issue then we can expect to see more of these issue crop up in the coming months ahead. If this trend continues, then I would completely agree that Mitsu has a real problem and their PHEV strategy is doomed. On the other hand, if this is the end of the problems and it's clear waters between now and the eventual US launch a year from now, then I think consumers here will have moved past it in the same manner as the Volt battery fiasco. That was a big deal at the time, but now you never hear about it anymore.

Either way, we will know how the Outlander is performing in other markets long before it gets here so it should be relatively easy to make a risk assessment at the time. I don't expect we'll see any roadshows here until Mitsu has a confirmed launch date. Then it will be like movie trailers, the closer to release the more we'll see.

Mitsu said this week that the possibility of a Lancer PHEV hinges on the Outlander's success. In the US, whether or not Mitsubishi survives likely depends on the Outlander's success. I expect they will do whatever is necessary to ensure that happens.

 

[Pipcecil]

Well being in Texas, the Honda Accorda Plug-in and Prius Plug-in are automattically out since they are not available (yes I know I can order them across state lines, but you have to deal with repairs issues, etc. with a non-supported state - so I would rather not deal with that).

From that point its really the cmax, fusion or volt. The volt is the closest to a EV driving experience so that gives it a boost in my book. Secondly, if I had to switch cars and take a plug in to work, only the Volt would work for all electric drive (my work is 27 miles away, but have a plug at work), so the no gas on work realted trips is a very big plus (probably the most important item). As for the size, if I felt like I needed a larger vehicle for family, hauling stuff (if I did it on a regular basis), that would favor a c-max, but since I have zero kids at the moment with maybe one in the future at most, then I don't need the extra space and the Volt would satisfy my needs just fine (including future needs if I have a kid).

So with that its Volt all the way.

 

[lion]

It all depends on if someone else will be using this car as a commuter while you are driving your LEAF around.

If that's the case, then the Volt. If it's just a 2nd car, then PHEV just doesn't make sense (and I had one). Even in the Volt's case, the ~40 miles in EV mode on a long trip won't make up for the premium you have to pay for the car.

Get a Prius (or a Prius C if it's just 2 people, and want the most bang for the buck) if you have environmental concerns, or a used late gen TDI if it's about the best bang for the buck.

 

[Pipcecil]

It all depends on if someone else will be using this car as a commuter while you are driving your LEAF around.

If that's the case, then the Volt. If it's just a 2nd car, then PHEV just doesn't make sense (and I had one). Even in the Volt's case, the ~40 miles in EV mode on a long trip won't make up for the premium you have to pay for the car.

Get a Prius (or a Prius C if it's just 2 people, and want the most bang for the buck) if you have environmental concerns, or a used late gen TDI if it's about the best bang for the buck.

Good point, the cheaper gas plus the better fuel economy the prius wins on any longer trip if you can't charge in between. In the end though, commuter wise, the volt usually wins unless your commute is long inbetween chargers. In addition, if you are only using your second car for an occassional trip, it may be cheaper just to rent one for use. But it comes down to how often are you taking those long trips (once a month, once a week, etc.). Its an interesting math/money equation to see what works out cheapest.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

It all depends on if someone else will be using this car as a commuter while you are driving your LEAF around.

If that's the case, then the Volt. If it's just a 2nd car, then PHEV just doesn't make sense (and I had one). Even in the Volt's case, the ~40 miles in EV mode on a long trip won't make up for the premium you have to pay for the car.

Get a Prius (or a Prius C if it's just 2 people, and want the most bang for the buck) if you have environmental concerns, or a used late gen TDI if it's about the best bang for the buck.

Good point, the cheaper gas plus the better fuel economy the prius wins on any longer trip if you can't charge in between. In the end though, commuter wise, the volt usually wins unless your commute is long inbetween chargers. In addition, if you are only using your second car for an occassional trip, it may be cheaper just to rent one for use. But it comes down to how often are you taking those long trips (once a month, once a week, etc.). Its an interesting math/money equation to see what works out cheapest.

Theres also the in-between where you sometimes need a second car and sometimes take long trips. In our case, the Leaf is the perfect vehicle around town that we can normally use. Most of the time we don't need two cars, but when we do, we have an ICE. We can use the ICE when we both need to be somewhere different, if one of us needs to go somewhere beyond the range of the Leaf, if we need more space or cargo capacity than the Leaf, or when we take family vacations. We have a minivan as our ICE. So far its very rarely used.

We have an awesome VW TDI (we've gotten 55mpg) that we're selling now that we have the Leaf.

 

[Deleted member 1622]

I'm being convinced by the Volt fans now, because we will likely have a two-commute family soon. Does anyone know why the other carmakers in the PHEV family decided against large batteries like the Volt has? I expected them all to match the Volt battery size and range, but instead we got the 10-25 mile all-electric range. Is it cost?
Is the explanation as simple as, "You can't fit a (full-sized, traction) ICE and a big battery in the same frame?" This seems like something a good designer could figure out, but what do I know.

JG

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I'm being convinced by the Volt fans now, because we will likely have a two-commute family soon. Does anyone know why the other carmakers in the PHEV family decided against large batteries like the Volt has? I expected them all to match the Volt battery size and range, but instead we got the 10-25 mile all-electric range. Is it cost?
Is the explanation as simple as, "You can't fit a (full-sized, traction) ICE and a big battery in the same frame?" This seems like something a good designer could figure out, but what do I know.

JG

Cost. Its not easy. GM says they're losing money on each Volt. Also weight and size. Where do you put it. Leaf and BMW i3 are purpose built, concealing the battery under the car. Volt is purpose built with the battery in the middle of the cabin. Everyone else throws it in the trunk of their existing cars eating up most of the space.

 

[Petecomp1]

Our Leaf companion must be able to tow up to 3000 lbs, cross-country if need be, for our ranch activities. That pretty much leaves out any Hybrid or BEV, until the magic battery and truly universally available charger infrastructure appears - probably not in my lifetime, unfortunately. So, we'll keep our venerable 2004 Honda Pilot, which now has 120K miles and very nearly as good as the day it left the dealer showroom.
The sheer volume of energy vs. weight in petro fuel just has no equal, until such time as we get a super-battery. Until we can figure out how to haul big things without petro, we are pretty stuck with it, I reckon. I am tempted to go for a Leaf trailer hitch for light towing but can't because mine is leased.
Pete

 

[lion]

Our Leaf companion must be able to tow up to 3000 lbs, cross-country if need be, for our ranch activities. That pretty much leaves out any Hybrid or BEV, until the magic battery and truly universally available charger infrastructure appears - probably not in my lifetime, unfortunately. So, we'll keep our venerable 2004 Honda Pilot, which now has 120K miles and very nearly as good as the day it left the dealer showroom.
The sheer volume of energy vs. weight in petro fuel just has no equal, until such time as we get a super-battery. Until we can figure out how to haul big things without petro, we are pretty stuck with it, I reckon. I am tempted to go for a Leaf trailer hitch for light towing but can't because mine is leased.
Pete

RAV4 EV Tow, better range than the LEAF, tons of space. While they are CA only, there are folks in WA which own this one, so I'm guessing there are dealers in the area willing to service it.