Trying to implement a reserve fuel supply in ICE cars presents a choice: install a part that would cost a significant amount to switch (via remote command) between a snorkel and a base intake, or alter the way the fuel gauge displays remaining fuel, which is essentially free, or in the case of a Low Fuel Light, cheap. Thus everyone chooses the fuel gauge trick. Volvo used to show a red Reserve area on the gauge, and I imagine other automakers have tried that, but human nature defeats it, as in the above VW anecdote.
Real World EV Range Listings
- Thread starter danrjones
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
salyavin
Well-known member
To me it just seems easier to tow to a charger, unless you are a very unusal person who managed to be a hundred miles from a charger when you ran out it should be a quick tow. Much easier than messing with generator trucks or the like. Still a pain in the butt and no walking to a gas station. Seems cheaper for them they drop you there and leave rather than waiting an hour for you to charge.
knightmb
Well-known member
If one had enough time to "wait" for a tow truck, friend, whatever, technically if you can keep the vehicle powered up but not driving until the battery goes flat, you could tow the vehicle and use regen to charge up the battery. Plenty of videos of people doing it online, probably not safe of course should you run into the back of the vehicle towing you, but if one was desperate, it could work. :shock:
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
This is getting very comical.
The idea that running out of charge is more inconvenient than running out of gas.
Yes, its "easier" to call someone to bring you gas so you don't have to wait for a tow truck which can take 2+ hours. Based on FB survey. 14 people responded. 3 said "no time at all, probably 20-30 mins"
5 said over an hour, 2 said no one ever showed up??? The rest said 2+ hours. For a bit it appeared living in the city had an advantage but that faded. Living in the country had a HUGE disadvantage as all of them were 2+ hours. All descriptions were based on the poster.
The idea that a reserve will solve the issue
The ONLY way to solve the issue is 100% removal of the Human factor. PERIOD
The idea that more charging stations will fix the issue
Didn't work for 400 mile range gassers so why do you think it will work for EVs?
FYI; On the "calling someone to bail me out" I actually did that calling 4 of my most reliable people. 3 of them didn't even have a gas can! Yeah, two of them, I talked into going all electric lawn care. Little did I know... :lol:
The other one wasn't home and didn't have their gas can on them.... The nerve!
The idea that running out of charge is more inconvenient than running out of gas.
Yes, its "easier" to call someone to bring you gas so you don't have to wait for a tow truck which can take 2+ hours. Based on FB survey. 14 people responded. 3 said "no time at all, probably 20-30 mins"
5 said over an hour, 2 said no one ever showed up??? The rest said 2+ hours. For a bit it appeared living in the city had an advantage but that faded. Living in the country had a HUGE disadvantage as all of them were 2+ hours. All descriptions were based on the poster.
The idea that a reserve will solve the issue
The ONLY way to solve the issue is 100% removal of the Human factor. PERIOD
The idea that more charging stations will fix the issue
Didn't work for 400 mile range gassers so why do you think it will work for EVs?
FYI; On the "calling someone to bail me out" I actually did that calling 4 of my most reliable people. 3 of them didn't even have a gas can! Yeah, two of them, I talked into going all electric lawn care. Little did I know... :lol:
The other one wasn't home and didn't have their gas can on them.... The nerve!
danrjones
Well-known member
I don't have an issue with some reserve (few miles) in EVs below zero percent, but in regards to REAL WORLD range testing like Edmunds did, you cannot expect it to count toward range. In the real world, most people will never see that extra range. So if a company like Tesla wants to hide 20 or 30 miles below zero percent, good on them, but it is going to hurt their "Real World" range. And effectively it means I would be paying for range I'm never going to see or use. EPA range, to dead, is far less interesting to me because I'm never going to do that. YMMV.
As an example, I have an excel sheet I have for trading in the Leaf later this year, and one of the columns for the vehicles is 10% to 80% range in miles. To me, that is a "Real World" range I'm comfortable using.
As an example, I have an excel sheet I have for trading in the Leaf later this year, and one of the columns for the vehicles is 10% to 80% range in miles. To me, that is a "Real World" range I'm comfortable using.
knightmb
Well-known member
My guess is that if all manufactures gave you the "to dead battery" range *now*, it would just have the same issue with the Gen 1 Leaf where you get about 1 or 2 miles of range once turtle mode hits and people just get stranded because of the GOM was too generous at the start of the trip. At least this way, the GOM can "seem" right if the extra range at the end gets you to the next charging station. While not technically accurate and it bugs all of us, you have to think about the typical consumer that doesn't understand the difference between kW and kWH or know what the miles per kWH even means on the dash.
A lot of my friends and family still drive Gen 1 Leaf and have gotten use to how the mileage "works" for them. They would love it the range GOM had some "hidden" mileage for times when they under-estimated the range they needed to travel or it more closely matched what the GOM had shown in the first place. So, while we can debate what is fair about the usable range, I think it comes down more to the EV image reflected to the consumer and less focus on the rest of us that are more technical and wonder where all the range went.
A lot of my friends and family still drive Gen 1 Leaf and have gotten use to how the mileage "works" for them. They would love it the range GOM had some "hidden" mileage for times when they under-estimated the range they needed to travel or it more closely matched what the GOM had shown in the first place. So, while we can debate what is fair about the usable range, I think it comes down more to the EV image reflected to the consumer and less focus on the rest of us that are more technical and wonder where all the range went.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
I do agree that the Lwaf should to reflect the miles to dead at the top of the battery, then slowly hide 8-9% over the drive. It would better to just leave it off, then have a gift of not getting stranded if you miscalculated by 5 miles.
jlv
Well-known member
I tend to lop off 30% of the car's range in my mindset. Don't drive under 10%, only charge to 80% on a regular basis.
(of course, for the last year it's been more like don't drive, and only charge to 60% :lol: ).
(of course, for the last year it's been more like don't drive, and only charge to 60% :lol: ).
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
danrjones said:
Cherry pick your views anyway you want to. Its called comfort level and we all have it, but I paid for it and I will use it. Have done so many times...Not a few times, mind you; THOUSANDS OF TIMES. It was a near daily occurrence in both my 24 kwh LEAFs. I know people who charge to full needlessly because they start to fret when the GOM drops below 100...even if they are 10 miles from home and this is not an April 1st statement.
Your "real world" statement is a fallacy. When people realize that a reserve exists, they will start using it. That is human nature. We don't have 120,000 people a year running out of gas because of broken gas gauges. We don't have EVers playing with their phone on the side of the road due to malfunctioning range warnings.
So yeah, there are people of all kinds but the majority? Stand with me. I do believe in leaving a mile in the tank no matter what..."most" of the time
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
jlv said:
And that is how it should be. Range provides options so take advantage!
danrjones
Well-known member
DaveinOlyWA said:danrjones said:
Cherry pick your views anyway you want to. Its called comfort level and we all have it, but I paid for it and I will use it. Have done so many times...Not a few times, mind you; THOUSANDS OF TIMES. It was a near daily occurrence in both my 24 kwh LEAFs. I know people who charge to full needlessly because they start to fret when the GOM drops below 100...even if they are 10 miles from home and this is not an April 1st statement.
Your "real world" statement is a fallacy. When people realize that a reserve exists, they will start using it. That is human nature. We don't have 120,000 people a year running out of gas because of broken gas gauges. We don't have EVers playing with their phone on the side of the road due to malfunctioning range warnings.
So yeah, there are people of all kinds but the majority? Stand with me. I do believe in leaving a mile in the tank no matter what..."most" of the time
You believe what you want, and I'll disagree, and leave it at that.
danrjones
Well-known member
DaveinOlyWA said:I do believe in leaving a mile in the tank no matter what..."most" of the time
By the way, you are most welcome to post charts or numbers of what you think various EVs Real World range is. I may have opened the thread but I certainly don't claim a monopoly to it. Post away!
Users here are big boys and girls and can use whichever set of numbers they want. Like I said, for my excel spreadsheet for helping to pick my Leaf replacement, I use 20% to 80% range. I am also using my virtual test track from ABRP, since I know its matched my Leaf driving very well.
Each to their own!
WetEV
Well-known member
danrjones said:DaveinOlyWA said:I do believe in leaving a mile in the tank no matter what..."most" of the time
By the way, you are most welcome to post charts or numbers of what you think various EVs Real World range is. I may have opened the thread but I certainly don't claim a monopoly to it. Post away!
Users here are big boys and girls and can use whichever set of numbers they want. Like I said, for my excel spreadsheet for helping to pick my Leaf replacement, I use 20% to 80% range. I am also using my virtual test track from ABRP, since I know its matched my Leaf driving very well.
Each to their own!
ABRP is very pessimistic on e-tron range.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
WetEV said:danrjones said:DaveinOlyWA said:I do believe in leaving a mile in the tank no matter what..."most" of the time
By the way, you are most welcome to post charts or numbers of what you think various EVs Real World range is. I may have opened the thread but I certainly don't claim a monopoly to it. Post away!
Users here are big boys and girls and can use whichever set of numbers they want. Like I said, for my excel spreadsheet for helping to pick my Leaf replacement, I use 20% to 80% range. I am also using my virtual test track from ABRP, since I know its matched my Leaf driving very well.
Each to their own!
ABRP is very pessimistic on e-tron range.
I found the app to be very inconsistent. Some routes its pretty close while others miss badly and its seems like its always on the short end? But have to say, have only used it a few times.
danrjones
Well-known member
WetEV said:danrjones said:DaveinOlyWA said:I do believe in leaving a mile in the tank no matter what..."most" of the time
By the way, you are most welcome to post charts or numbers of what you think various EVs Real World range is. I may have opened the thread but I certainly don't claim a monopoly to it. Post away!
Users here are big boys and girls and can use whichever set of numbers they want. Like I said, for my excel spreadsheet for helping to pick my Leaf replacement, I use 20% to 80% range. I am also using my virtual test track from ABRP, since I know its matched my Leaf driving very well.
Each to their own!
ABRP is very pessimistic on e-tron range.
I think ABRP requires user feedback to dial in each vehicle.
Could be Etron users are too busy hanging out with Robin Leach to give feedback?
jlv
Well-known member
Yes.danrjones said:
ABRP gives spot on numbers for Tesla cars, but that's no surprise since they developed the site with Tesla as the target car. For other cars, they require lots of actual driving data to fine tune the vehicle profile.
A range of opinions exist whether a 'reserve' is a good idea, and how big it "should" be, and how to use it.danrjones said:
To all, I say: Whatever. Pick your poison and leave it at that.
The Edmunds stupidity was something else entirely, not understanding that manufacturers set varying usable battery reserves that have to be taken into account when testing range.
jlv
Well-known member
Sort of in the same idea as the "reserve" fuel tank lever like in my Dad's first VW Bug (a '60). When you hit that, it's time to fill up, but you still have some miles left.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7159212
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7159212
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
I think a 2-3kWh reserve is a good idea, as it both creates some low end battery protection, and chances of getting stuck For those who live on the edge. More then that, and you undercut the range of the car to much.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
DougWantsALeaf said:
The ONLY thing I need is an effective way to monitor ALL my range and lucky me; that is exactly what I have. Not saying it works for everyone since several thousand people a day still run out of gas but...
FYI; I don't live on the edge but I have visited the glass platform that extends beyond the edge several times :lol:
