REALLY!!! $200 gas tax.

[garyacrowellsr]

I'm old but not so old that I don't remember growing up in the 60's and 70's before the Clean Air Act. Grew up just south of Los Angeles. Many days we couldn't go out for recess when I was in elementary school in the 60's. Walking the mile to Junior and Senior high. Moving into the 3rd floor dorm in the early 70's meant a 20 minute "rest stop" in the room after each trip up so our lungs would stop burning.

As to the thread topic, I drive my Prius Prime maybe 4K miles a year, my wife drives her Leaf about 21K a year. Her prior car was a 2006 Prius averaging 40+ MPG in the winter, 50+ in the summer, full tank. Figure 450 gallons of gas a year.

Guess which one of us is retired My driving is 425 mile round trip on the interstate twice a year, 55 MPG. All other travel is local (< 25 miles round trip) or to the larger city (60 miles round trip). Non interstate travel, 65 to 70 MPG and that is after the EV range is exhausted. I use maybe 50 gallons of gas a year.

A flat $200 tax on my car would be $0.05/mile, more than doubling the current cost/mile. The same $200 on the Leaf would be $0.01/mile

The electricity for my Leaf is about 3 cents a mile. The tax, 3 cents a mile.

 

[KazooBruce]

I'm old but not so old that I don't remember growing up in the 60's and 70's before the Clean Air Act. Grew up just south of Los Angeles. Many days we couldn't go out for recess when I was in elementary school in the 60's. Walking the mile to Junior and Senior high. Moving into the 3rd floor dorm in the early 70's meant a 20 minute "rest stop" in the room after each trip up so our lungs would stop burning.

As to the thread topic, I drive my Prius Prime maybe 4K miles a year, my wife drives her Leaf about 21K a year. Her prior car was a 2006 Prius averaging 40+ MPG in the winter, 50+ in the summer, full tank. Figure 450 gallons of gas a year.

Guess which one of us is retired My driving is 425 mile round trip on the interstate twice a year, 55 MPG. All other travel is local (< 25 miles round trip) or to the larger city (60 miles round trip). Non interstate travel, 65 to 70 MPG and that is after the EV range is exhausted. I use maybe 50 gallons of gas a year.

A flat $200 tax on my car would be $0.05/mile, more than doubling the current cost/mile. The same $200 on the Leaf would be $0.01/mile

I lived in LA during the same time. It is too easy to forget how bad it was. I agree the flat tax is not the way to go. I only drive 6k a year. Let's leave the gas tax as it is, and do odometer for EV. For plug in hybrid, we could require mfg to have two odometers. Miles on electric and total miles. So only odometer tax on electric. Gas tax at the pump.

 

[sircastor]

I live in Oregon and after nearly 10 years of LEAF ownership, I think this is the first year I'm dealing with this.

I can either pay $316 flat, or I can pay an $86 + $0.02/mile. The latter is by far the better deal financially for my wife and I - we probably drive 4-6K miles a year in that car. But this comes with a cost. You have to plug in a device to your ODB2 port, that tracks your geolocation and sends the data back to a provider that bills you. This is a bridge too far for me. I'm not doing anything shady, but I don't want to pay money to give someone else data to sell on me. Ugh. Why they can't just read the odometer at the end of the year and charge me is beyond me.

 

[BillAinCT]

I'm simply curious and not judging anything you say, but what could be sold from you mileage and location that is harmful to you (and even gainful to them)? If you carry a cellphone AFAIK that's available to your service provider already.

 

[cornbinder89]

I'm simply curious and not judging anything you say, but what could be sold from you mileage and location that is harmful to you (and even gainful to them)? If you carry a cellphone AFAIK that's available to your service provider already.

It would allow them to set a higher tax rate/mile in differing location, so one rate for say greater Portland and another for Bend, or one rate for daytime and another for night.
I am less concerned about other things that may be gleened from my data. Cell phone records are at least supposed require a court order to be turned over, but in practice?

 

[Chad E. Mo]

Did someone say a tire tax?

Yes, I did, back on page one. The complications of all the other 8 pages of stuff make the tire tax look pretty straightforward.

Weight is proportional
Mileage is proportional
Summer/Winter tires is self administrating: Use of one set prolongs life of the other (delaying the next dunning)

Tracking users is a non issue.

Occam's razor and all that.

 

[Jerrymander]

Death and taxes. ...

 

[KazooBruce]

Interesting that I read that Michigan is looking into using miles traveled for all vehicles, not just EVs. There was a comment in the press release that rural citizens tend to drive vehicles with lower MPG so they disproportionally pay more road tax per mile then urban drivers. An inetesting thought. Does a pickup truck cause more harm to the roadbed than a heavy EV? Anyway Ill be tracking this topic in Michigan.

 

[Burt]

Interesting that I read that Michigan is looking into using miles traveled for all vehicles, not just EVs. There was a comment in the press release that rural citizens tend to drive vehicles with lower MPG so they disproportionally pay more road tax per mile then urban drivers. An inetesting thought. Does a pickup truck cause more harm to the roadbed than a heavy EV? Anyway Ill be tracking this topic in Michigan.

Yes and they drive on less travelled roads, so the cost per vehicle-mile is dramatically higher.

Who wrote the press release?

 

[marshallinwash]

Interesting that I read that Michigan is looking into using miles traveled for all vehicles, not just EVs. There was a comment in the press release that rural citizens tend to drive vehicles with lower MPG so they disproportionally pay more road tax per mile then urban drivers. An inetesting thought. Does a pickup truck cause more harm to the roadbed than a heavy EV? Anyway Ill be tracking this topic in Michigan.

Wouldn't it cost more to maintain and build rural roads versus the amount collected in taxes? If so, then they should be paying more.

 

[MikeinPA]

Wouldn't it cost more to maintain and build rural roads versus the amount collected in taxes? If so, then they should be paying more.

To some extent yes, the person that uses the service should pay for the service. But there is also a societal dimension where we maintain roads as part of the fabric of society. Just like schools, or rural electrification. That being said, there is so much about the current built out road system that is not about society but about pushing fossil fuels and all the machines using it.

 

[Burt]

To some extent yes, the person that uses the service should pay for the service. But there is also a societal dimension where we maintain roads as part of the fabric of society. Just like schools, or rural electrification. That being said, there is so much about the current built out road system that is not about society but about pushing fossil fuels and all the machines using it.

Let’s face it. The federal gas tax hasn’t been raised in over 30 years. State gas taxes likewise haven’t kept up with inflation. Nobody is paying enough to cover the cost of road maintenance. Mass transit in much of the US is horribly uneconomic based on ridership. There are no easy answers but moving towards recovering the actual cost is a good starting point.

 

[cornbinder89]

Let’s face it. The federal gas tax hasn’t been raised in over 30 years. State gas taxes likewise haven’t kept up with inflation. Nobody is paying enough to cover the cost of road maintenance. Mass transit in much of the US is horribly uneconomic based on ridership. There are no easy answers but moving towards recovering the actual cost is a good starting point.

No politician wants to be on record of rising taxes, and that is the reason the fuel tax has not kept up. None of the proposed "fixes" are any better in this regard. Every one requires the tax to be raised for inflation and none do it automatically. So far there is no "fix" for the weak politician.

 

[MikeinPA]

No politician wants to be on record of rising taxes

"State of the Union: Biden vows to raise taxes on wealthy, corporations" https://www.reuters.com/world/us/state-union-biden-push-wealth-company-tax-ideas-2024-03-07/

 

[Joey21]

I renewed my ICEV tags last week here in TN and it was ~$50 or so. I asked about the new to us (used) EV we just purchased and they told me it would be $200 per year. So, take away the ~$50 I would pay anyhow, it's $150 worth of EV specific tax. I can live with that. I want our gov't to be very practical about how they spend our tax money but I'm okay with paying my fair share.

 

[Joeaverage]

Correction, it was $29. I had to go back and look.

 

[jimmol]

Here in Nebraska it is $75.00. It is a special fuel charge.

 

[ebeighe]

Interesting that I read that Michigan is looking into using miles traveled for all vehicles, not just EVs. There was a comment in the press release that rural citizens tend to drive vehicles with lower MPG so they disproportionally pay more road tax per mile then urban drivers. An inetesting thought. Does a pickup truck cause more harm to the roadbed than a heavy EV? Anyway Ill be tracking this topic in Michigan.

"Does a pickup truck [presumably ICE] cause more harm to the roadbed than a heavy EV?"

Around here (Phoenix metro, exceedingly few farmers!), large (the industry calls them "full size") pickups dominate the market, e.g. Ford F-series. They are used both by tradespeople, as well as, more and more, general purpose transportation

the LIGHTEST Ford F-150 is ~ 4,440 pounds, and in many trims (which seem very common: crew cab, king cab, etc, 4x4, etc) are heavier. F-250 and F-350 series are heavier still. The F-series is, IIRC, sells the most units in US; or have the most units on the road, or some such.
The pickup lines from GM and Ram are similarly popular and common.
My old leaf was like 3,400 pounds, my new car, a Chevy Bolt is 3,700 pounds.

I mention this because I see more and more -- what seem to me to be distortions -- in the press that EVs are "heavy". Without mentioning it more depends on what type of vehicle, and not whether it's EV or ICE.

Here's and example, an editorial from the WSJ, which i would classify idealogically as mainstream, right-leaning, pro-business:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/electr...-california-ban-gas-powered-vehicles-521b29e3
"Electric Cars Emit More Particulate Pollution: They have greater tire wear, the source of most particulate matter"
This is paywalled but you get the idea: EVs are bad, ICE is good (or at least okay).

 

[Joeaverage]

Riiight - because sports cars zipping around doing sporty things, pickup trucks towing heavy things, big SUVs being used as commuter vehicles, and commercial traffic doesn't make more tire particulate matter than a commuter car EV.

I'm sure I'll hear the echo of this headline at a certain cookout this weekend. At least that will give me a chance to pose a few questions to the parrot repeating the headline.

 

[MikeinPA]

"Does a pickup truck [presumably ICE] cause more harm to the roadbed than a heavy EV?"

Around here (Phoenix metro, exceedingly few farmers!), large (the industry calls them "full size") pickups dominate the market, e.g. Ford F-series. They are used both by tradespeople, as well as, more and more, general purpose transportation

the LIGHTEST Ford F-150 is ~ 4,440 pounds, and in many trims (which seem very common: crew cab, king cab, etc, 4x4, etc) are heavier. F-250 and F-350 series are heavier still. The F-series is, IIRC, sells the most units in US; or have the most units on the road, or some such.
The pickup lines from GM and Ram are similarly popular and common.
My old leaf was like 3,400 pounds, my new car, a Chevy Bolt is 3,700 pounds.

I mention this because I see more and more -- what seem to me to be distortions -- in the press that EVs are "heavy". Without mentioning it more depends on what type of vehicle, and not whether it's EV or ICE.

Here's and example, an editorial from the WSJ, which i would classify idealogically as mainstream, right-leaning, pro-business:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/electr...-california-ban-gas-powered-vehicles-521b29e3
"Electric Cars Emit More Particulate Pollution: They have greater tire wear, the source of most particulate matter"
This is paywalled but you get the idea: EVs are bad, ICE is good (or at least okay).

When I see articles like the one you link to from WSJ my BS meter gives a big sqawk. Easy enough to check online and learn that the average American car weighs about 4300 pounds -- https://www.nada.org/nada/nada-head...e-developing-serious-weight-problem-bloomberg -- while of course the Leaf is well under that and the average EV's weight is likely also about 4300 pounds. There is less brake dust, as we all know. And a lot less tailpipe emissions. Not saying we don't need to deal with tire dust--because we do.

Wear to highways is well understood thanks to a giant study in the 50's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AASHO_Road_Test . Essentially, wear increases at the 4th power of axle weight--so those F350s and Suburbans are doing far more damage than any 4000 pound vehicle.