Seriously contemplating a Leaf..

[buzzneon]

Good afternoon,

I currently own a 2004 VW R32 - which is an awesome car that I never want to part with!

However it is now 10 years old, with 120,000 miles on it, and I'd like to reduce its workload a bit. It's also a little thirsty: the "32" in "R32" refers to the 3.2 litre V6 motor, which only gets low 20s MPG around town. Spending less on gas and maintenance, while extending the life of the R, is all extremely desirable.

I'm also a big fan of new technology .. specifically new "workable" technology. I had WiFi at home in the late 90s, and a Tivo around 2000. Neither of which were perfect at the time (far from it), but both are indispensable now. I'm really interested in electric vehicles, even though I'm not yet totally sold on rechargeable batteries (which I'll expand upon at the end of this post).

I live in Chicago, which comprises a large area; however my weekday commute is actually pretty small: 12 miles a day, all surface streets. I'd say on average I'd do 20 additional miles a week just running around town, so let's say 80 miles a week on average. Sometimes it's more of course, last week I did 170 Sunday to Sunday - but no single journey was more than maybe 20 miles. Perfect for a Leaf (actually I kind of wish my daily commute was a little longer so the savings would be greater).

The other side of the coin is of course how frequently I do need 65+ miles in a day .. heading up to Six Flags for instance, or Brookfield Zoo, or even just to some friends or "that great restaurant" that's way over in the western suburbs (I live in Evanston which is just north of the city, on the far east); and public charging is still a bit of a mess around here thanks to the demise of Charjit. I'm always going to want to take the R32 for some of these longer drives (it's really a wonderful car to drive), but I'd love it if the Leaf could do more of them.

So - due to my smaller daily commute, and needing my gas car for the really long ones, I think the Leaf would actually cost me about $200 a month. Now I'm not sure if that's really a bad thing, because I like the Leaf and I really want to support the whole EV industry. I'd love to see a larger range of EV cars available in Illinois. Confession: I'd probably get the Fiat 500e if it were available here, as I feel the Leaf is a bit too big for my needs. (Note: I've not driven the 500e - it could very well be rubbish).

That said, I HAVE driven the Leaf. Autobahn Evanston loaned me one for about 90 minutes on Saturday and I really liked it. I admit I liked it more than I thought I would. My R32 already has one of the smoothest and most responsive motors available, but that was nothing compared to the electric motor in the Leaf. Of course it's quite a bit slower than my car, but it didn't feel anywhere near as slow as I was expecting .. I was able to move through traffic extremely easily and had no troubles on I94. It was actively fun to drive .. and I don't just mean the "novelty" of electric, the car itself has a bit of personality and spirit, which I like.

This morning I got a quote for 240v 40amp service in my detached garage: $1300 (there's plenty of space on the panel, but they will need to bury a whole new run); however I believe the state of Illinois will cover half of the installation costs. I know I can charge the Leaf on 110, and I'm fine with that initially, but I will eventually want level 2.

So it seems to be decision time for me. I've never leased a vehicle or even bought one brand new (even my R32 was 2 years old); however the deals now are so great. The EV market is no-where near ready for the masses yet, but it'll get there, and it it'll get there quicker with enough support.

Aside from $200 a month, the other thing I'm questioning at the moment is the general viability of rechargeable batteries. I know it's still very early in the life of this industry; but even if the batteries get 20x more efficient, I still see it being a non-trivial transition for people from ICE to EV. Personally I wonder if hydrogen fuel-cells wouldn't be a better way to go, and if supporting rechargeable EVs might actually be slowing research into hydrogen. Both industries are exciting to watch, and both have serious challenges ahead.

So that's where I stand at the moment. I've been reading these forums for a while now and it seems like a really good and supportive community. I hope I can join you guys soon!

Cameron.

 

[Nubo]

Sounds like you've got a pretty good understanding of the car and what to expect.

As far as batteries vs fuel cells, my opinion is we need better of both. If we had perfect batteries we wouldn't need fuel cells, and vice-versa. For the foreseeable future we'll have imperfect versions of both, which complement each other, and both need to improve.

Check into whether or not there's still a Federal income tax deduction for EVSE purchase and installation.

 

[GRA]

Good afternoon,

I currently own a 2004 VW R32 - which is an awesome car that I never want to part with!

However it is now 10 years old, with 120,000 miles on it, and I'd like to reduce its workload a bit. It's also a little thirsty: the "32" in "R32" refers to the 3.2 litre V6 motor, which only gets low 20s MPG around town. Spending less on gas and maintenance, while extending the life of the R, is all extremely desirable.

I'm also a big fan of new technology .. specifically new "workable" technology. I had WiFi at home in the late 90s, and a Tivo around 2000. Neither of which were perfect at the time (far from it), but both are indispensable now. I'm really interested in electric vehicles, even though I'm not yet totally sold on rechargeable batteries (which I'll expand upon at the end of this post).

I live in Chicago, which comprises a large area; however my weekday commute is actually pretty small: 12 miles a day, all surface streets. I'd say on average I'd do 20 additional miles a week just running around town, so let's say 80 miles a week on average. Sometimes it's more of course, last week I did 170 Sunday to Sunday - but no single journey was more than maybe 20 miles. Perfect for a Leaf (actually I kind of wish my daily commute was a little longer so the savings would be greater).

The other side of the coin is of course how frequently I do need 65+ miles in a day .. heading up to Six Flags for instance, or Brookfield Zoo, or even just to some friends or "that great restaurant" that's way over in the western suburbs (I live in Evanston which is just north of the city, on the far east); and public charging is still a bit of a mess around here thanks to the demise of Charjit. I'm always going to want to take the R32 for some of these longer drives (it's really a wonderful car to drive), but I'd love it if the Leaf could do more of them.

So - due to my smaller daily commute, and needing my gas car for the really long ones, I think the Leaf would actually cost me about $200 a month. Now I'm not sure if that's really a bad thing, because I like the Leaf and I really want to support the whole EV industry. I'd love to see a larger range of EV cars available in Illinois. Confession: I'd probably get the Fiat 500e if it were available here, as I feel the Leaf is a bit too big for my needs. (Note: I've not driven the 500e - it could very well be rubbish).

That said, I HAVE driven the Leaf. Autobahn Evanston loaned me one for about 90 minutes on Saturday and I really liked it. I admit I liked it more than I thought I would. My R32 already has one of the smoothest and most responsive motors available, but that was nothing compared to the electric motor in the Leaf. Of course it's quite a bit slower than my car, but it didn't feel anywhere near as slow as I was expecting .. I was able to move through traffic extremely easily and had no troubles on I94. It was actively fun to drive .. and I don't just mean the "novelty" of electric, the car itself has a bit of personality and spirit, which I like.

This morning I got a quote for 240v 40amp service in my detached garage: $1300 (there's plenty of space on the panel, but they will need to bury a whole new run); however I believe the state of Illinois will cover half of the installation costs. I know I can charge the Leaf on 110, and I'm fine with that initially, but I will eventually want level 2.

So it seems to be decision time for me. I've never leased a vehicle or even bought one brand new (even my R32 was 2 years old); however the deals now are so great. The EV market is no-where near ready for the masses yet, but it'll get there, and it it'll get there quicker with enough support.

Aside from $200 a month, the other thing I'm questioning at the moment is the general viability of rechargeable batteries. I know it's still very early in the life of this industry; but even if the batteries get 20x more efficient, I still see it being a non-trivial transition for people from ICE to EV. Personally I wonder if hydrogen fuel-cells wouldn't be a better way to go, and if supporting rechargeable EVs might actually be slowing research into hydrogen. Both industries are exciting to watch, and both have serious challenges ahead.

So that's where I stand at the moment. I've been reading these forums for a while now and it seems like a really good and supportive community. I hope I can join you guys soon!

Cameron.

Cameron, given where you are and your other wheels, you should have a look at a Focus EV. More sporty than the LEAF, albeit less space for cargo and pax, but that doesn't sound like it would be a big deal for you. And the Smart might be an option as well, given the shortness of your commute (and IIRR the battery is heated and cooled as necessary). The 2014 iMiEV is also an option, although its battery is only air-cooled. The Focus battery is liquid-cooled (no heating) only, so longevity over hot summers should be better than the LEAF. A 500e or better yet a Spark (cooled _and_ heated battery) might be a better match for commuting, but as you know they aren't (easily) available in Illinois.

OTOH, you could also go PHEV, given how short your commute is. A base Volt lists for about the same as the (fully-loaded) Focus EV, and a PHEV will never force you to choose between getting to your destination or freezing, the way any sub-$40k BEV can in cold temps on longer trips. There's also the Ford Fusion and C-Max Energis, either of which has enough electric range for your commute. The Accord PHEV is overpriced, the Plug-in Prius (aka PiP), is a Prius with a ridiculously short electric range and a higher price. And there are rumors that Ford will be offering a PHEV version of the Focus, but that's a ways out.

In any case, if you haven't already you might want to read the Car & Driver comparo of the six 'affordable' BEVs:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2014-chevy-spark-ev-vs-fiat-500e-ford-focus-electric-honda-fit-ev-nissan-leaf-smart-fortwo-ed-comparison-test" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a practical matter you can eliminate the Fit, Spark and 500e from your short list, as they aren't available in Illinois.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[keydiver]

I think a Leaf sounds perfect for you:
1) You have a second gas vehicle for long drives.
2) Your commute is so short that even on the coldest Chicago day, with the heat blasting, you shouldn't have any range issues.
3) You are so far north that you should never need to deal with a heat-degraded battery.

 

[RonDawg]

I'm much like the OP, except replace " 10 y/o VW Golf R32" with (at the time) a 7 y/o Audi A3 2.0T. I love my Audi as well, but in addition to being a bit thirsty (can drop below 20 MPG in stop and go traffic with the A/C going) it also does what lots of VWs and Audis of that generation do, and that's burn oil.

A new or even CPO'd Audi was not in the budget and it would have broken my heart to replace it with a soulless but reliable Japanese appliance. I had been interested in the Leaf for a while, but the mid-$30's price pretty much put it out of my mind. Then I saw on TV that Nissan was leasing these for $199/month. That would allow me to keep the Audi, but have something reliable for everyday tasks. So I took one home.

While a bit soulless when compared to the Audi, the Leaf has been a very reliable appliance to me. It's a lot easier to drive in city traffic than the Audi with its turbo engine (and turbo lag) and DSG automatic. It gets to share garage space with the Audi, which is my "range extender." And now that it's no longer my daily driver, the Audi has been behaving better as well. It's burning far less oil than it once did, and fuel economy has topped 30 MPG which it's never done before even on extended road trips.

At current prices, my Audi would cost me at least $170 to drive 1,000 miles, thanks to its thirst for premium fuel. My Leaf driven the same distance: $40 in electricity. Let's not even compare maintenance costs, which have totaled $40 over the first year with the Leaf (all because I'm too lazy to do my own tire rotations). I will spend more than that on VW 505.00 spec oil alone for each oil change on the Audi.

For those who have easy access to an ICEV or hybrid as a standby, don't mind having more than one car, and whose daily usage patterns fit within the range and charging limitations, a pure battery electric like the Leaf works very well.

 

[Reddy]

Buzz, good luck with the decision, but it is refreshing to see someone who really spends some time reading, analyzing, etc. As others have said, there are plenty of other options out there besides the Leaf. With your short commute (like mine) and colder temps, you can even afford to look at used Leafs as well as other short-range EVs like Mitsubishi. I've responded to others with this same type of advice. I only wish I could have bought a 3-yr old Leaf for $15k back in 2011. I still enjoy the Leaf and it meets all my needs, but I realize it's not for everyone. When I bought (low annual use so leasing wouldn't be cost efficient), the Leaf was the only real choice. If I were forced today, I'd probably go with a Ford CMax or something similar. I only need 10-20 mi EV range, so most of my Leaf battery is unused, except on rare occasions, or specific trips out of town to test the range.

 

[dm33]

LEAF will more than meet your needs. I moved from a 2002 VW Golf TDI. No where near as spirited at the R32 but a semblance.

Hydrogen isn't practical from the simple perspective of energy efficiency. It requires large amounts of energy to create hydrogen. It is extremely difficult to transport and store due to its small atomic size. Its only considered because it can be an evolutionary step for the oil industry. Elon Musk (Tesla) has choice words for fuel-cells.

The LEAF can go quite far in the right conditions, i.e. fair weather 70s (no AC, no heat) and slow speeds. Speed really kills efficiency. If you're driving 45mph you can go what seems like forever (100 miles or so on new battery).

Battery technology is still evolving quite a bit. The battery currently in the LEAF is very sensitive to temperatures about the mid 80s and loses capacity. For that reason I'd recommend leasing. Lease deals are much better on the LEAF than the Focus EV (at least in my area a few months back). Nissan is serious about EVs. There is a more temperature resistant battery supposed to arrive end of April. Nissan may not announce when the chemistry changes.

 

[LeftieBiker]

...the Plug-in Prius (aka PiP), is a Prius with a ridiculously short electric range and a higher price.

It will also do a 12 mile commute in EV mode on low to medium-speed streets, even in Winter (if you don't need cabin heat!). This probably isn't the car for the OP, but don't rule it out for short commutes. As for being more expensive, in states with rebates it's often *less* expensive than the non-PHEV Prius II. Our leased 2013 is $20 a month less than the 2013 Prius II, and the down payment was also lower.

 

[ksnogas2112]

I think you're in a real good place for a Leaf. You won't really take the summer hit the way we do but you will see a pretty serious range hit during the winter. This last January I used more electricity charging the Leaf while driving fewer miles than I did last September. This was due to the high use of the heater during this bitter cold winter. When the batteries get cold you don't get much/any regen and add the electric use on the heater you'll see 40-50 mile range options on a full charge in the winter and 60-80/90 miles during the summer. Given the number of public 240 and the 19 DCQC in the "Chicago" area (Joliet to Wakegan to Hammond) you are probably good to go anywhere.

You might want to get the qc package added to the S to get the 6.6 charger. Remember the $200 per month is a base S.

 

[joerivct]

Your situation sounds like mine - I bought the Leaf as a "local" car, not to replace my ICE for distance driving. Any ICE car used for local driving is relatively expensive - both in gas cost and wear. According to eGallon (http://energy.gov/articles/egallon-how-much-cheaper-it-drive-electricity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false your equivalent cost to "fuel" the Leaf is $0.93/gallon. And you will benefit from the $7,500 tax credit.

While you directly benefit from lower running costs, you indirectly benefit by using your ICE less as well - that's been my experience.

 

[IrvingHarlem]

Don't forget that you should qualify for a rebate from the State of Illinois around $2800. I bought mine two months ago and love it. My usage is about the same, 15 miles daily round trip and an occasional trip. I got to put the car through it's paces in the coldest winter ever and could go 80 miles at 10 below. Due to my low mileage I'm not as concerned about battery losses over the years. You and I would both have much more capacity then we usually need.

However, I will admit to wasting energy because I'm having so much fun driving the Leaf that I'm putting on more miles than usual.

I decided to keep my 2004 Jeep Liberty for an occasional larger load or longer trips. So I stuck with the Leaf S with no charging package and just the 3.3 kw charger. For daily use I'd rather just count on my own source of electricity. Still, I've drawn a circle around my house about 10 to 20 miles out and have been confirming the availability of L2 charging stations. That way I can stretch my range to the max but if I miscalculate I'll be able to find a safe harbor to charge for an hour or two and pick up 10 or 20 miles.

There are some perks, too. Did you know it costs $23 to park at the Chicago Museum Campus? But, if you're willing to walk 4 blocks from the free charging station at the nature center on Northerly Island it's free. (Oops, maybe I shouldn't have said anything, there's only one charging station.)

 

[apvbguy]

as for the quote of $1400 to upgrade your service to 40 amp is about $1k too high

 

[buzzneon]

as for the quote of $1400 to upgrade your service to 40 amp is about $1k too high

Well it's a detached garage - so they need to bury about 50 feet of cable.

The State Of Illinois will reimburse 50% of the installation, but only if you use a "certified" installer. The state would reimburse me if I did it myself, which makes even less sense .. they trust me (a programmer) to do electrical work, but they don't trust an actual electrician who just hasn't filled in some paper-work. Nice going, Illinois! (I'm guessing there's a fee to get certified too) :roll:

Anyway, the program will resume "in the Fall", so we'll see then.

Thanks for all the great replies - as I mentioned early, this is a really nice community. I'm determined to join you by the end of the year!

Cameron.

 

[BrockWI]

Not that I am suggesting this, but couldn't you do the install "yourself" and hire a sub (electrician) to do the work and get reimbursed by doing it yourself that way?