Suggest Cities to See Relative Battery Aging Factor

[Stoaty]

Surfingslovak has developed a table of relative Battery Aging Factors based on the average effective temperature:

I am going to get additional data for other cities (so far have Santa Monica, CA and Boston, MA and Portland, OR) for him to include in the table.

What other cities would you like to see included?

 

[ALLWATZ]

Surfingslovak has developed a table of relative Battery Aging Factors based on the average effective temperature:

I am going to get additional data for other cities (so far have Santa Monica, CA and Boston, MA and Portland, OR) for him to include in the table.

What other cities would you like to see included?

Palm Springs CA. Don't forget us 2 bar losers out here like Nissan has!

 

[linkim]

I think you should include Tennessee where Nissan is located, as well as Colorado or Utah.

 

[cwerdna]

I think you should include Tennessee where Nissan is located, as well as Colorado or Utah.

Agreed.

The choice of is cities is a bit odd, IMHO. What was that based on? Was it based upon some members' locations? It does make sense to pick some cities afflicted by battery woes (e.g. Phoenix and major cities in TX) and others that have mild climates (e.g. Seattle), but why Santa Clara? It has a population of 118K vs. San Jose's 967K. The city of Los Angeles has a population of 3.8 million vs. Anaheim's 341K.

I'd picking some cities that have the largest population like the list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (not sure how accurate it is). Perhaps if one could find a more recent version of http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/twps0027.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (by Googling for stuff on site:census.gov). However, the Leaf may not be widely available/sold in certain states/cities...

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'd include Dubai, some city in Japan with lots of LEAFs, and Renault headquarters in France.

Then add a statement of Arrhenius Law, and a further statement how this LiMN chemistry is one of the MOST susceptible to heat degradation pre Arrhenius Law, and that Nissan/Renault are the only major auto companies providing a battery not temperature regulated to prevent rapid degradation.

 

[Stoaty]

Good suggestions. I have gotten data for Palm Springs and Nashville (data on Smyrna not available from weatherspark.com). I will try to add some major cities. Don't know that I have energy to go outside U.S., but we will see how it goes. Dubai and a city near Tokyo would be excellent additions. It takes about 10-15 minutes to get the data for each city. I figured out a way to get a pretty accurate count of the number of pixels of each color in Photoshop, after doing a bit of brush work to remove some of the text. I am not sure how George did the calculations with the data to arrive at his relative aging factor, so will probably leave that part to him. Hopefully we can have some additional cities added to his chart in the next few days to a week.

 

[philipscoggins]

Nashville is a close enough forecast for Smyrna. It's less than 20 miles away.

Philip

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I think you should include Tennessee where Nissan is located, as well as Colorado or Utah.

Agreed.

The choice of is cities is a bit odd, IMHO. What was that based on? Was it based upon some members' locations? It does make sense to pick some cities afflicted by battery woes (e.g. Phoenix and major cities in TX) and others that have mild climates (e.g. Seattle), but why Santa Clara? It has a population of 118K vs. San Jose's 967K. The city of Los Angeles has a population of 3.8 million vs. Anaheim's 341K.

I'd picking some cities that have the largest population like the list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (not sure how accurate it is). Perhaps if one could find a more recent version of http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/twps0027.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (by Googling for stuff on site:census.gov). However, the Leaf may not be widely available/sold in certain states/cities...

not quite sure that very large population centers should be included especially Los Angeles. the sheer size of the area means there is a huge temperature variance that is not present in smaller towns like Anaheim.

also, does this chart take into account the seasonal variances? like Minneapolis being slightly colder than Seattle when in fact, their Summers are hotter and their Winters are colder. its those temperature swings that are more likely to cause havoc.

**edit** comment on Van Nuys deleted. thinking of completely different place that is much nearer the water

 

[Stoaty]

also, does this chart take into account the seasonal variances? like Minneapolis being slightly colder than Seattle when in fact, their Summers are hotter and their Winters are colder. its those temperature swings that are more likely to cause havoc.

also, Van Nuys hotter than Anaheim?? are we sure about that?

Yes, it takes into account seasonal variances:

See for example the chart for Dubai:

http://weatherspark.com/averages/32855/Dubai-United-Arab-Emirates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Look for "Fraction of Time Spent in Various Temperature Bands" (second graph down)

Also, Van Nuys is in the San Fernando Valley, which gets fairly hot in the summer, so off the cuff I would say it will be warmer overall.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

also, does this chart take into account the seasonal variances? like Minneapolis being slightly colder than Seattle when in fact, their Summers are hotter and their Winters are colder. its those temperature swings that are more likely to cause havoc.

also, Van Nuys hotter than Anaheim?? are we sure about that?

Yes, it takes into account seasonal variances:

See for example the chart for Dubai:

http://weatherspark.com/averages/32855/Dubai-United-Arab-Emirates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Look for "Fraction of Time Spent in Various Temperature Bands" (second graph down)

Also, Van Nuys is in the San Fernando Valley, which gets fairly hot in the summer, so off the cuff I would say it will be warmer overall.

ok cool. ya the Van Nuys thing i retracted. i was thinking of a completely different place (Venice Beach...they do sound alike i guess :? )

 

[jkirkebo]

Oslo, Norway would be nice to have in the table. Loads of Leafs here. Yearly avg. temperature is 42,26 degF.

 

[surfingslovak]

I think you should include Tennessee where Nissan is located, as well as Colorado or Utah.

The choice of is cities is a bit odd, IMHO. What was that based on?

Yes, I initially picked locations I had anecdotal data for, and places where I could reach Leaf owners and get some feedback. This was done to help vet the model, and make sure that it's providing useful data and a good point of reference. I think it would be best to cover all locations with significant EV adoption, and include a few beyond that for comparison (Dubai, Melbourne, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc). The biggest challenge there will be getting usable weather data. We need the amount of time spent in several temperature bands, not just annual average high and low temperatures. The quality and granularity of the climatic data will determine the value of the project. I would consider the table in its current form to be preliminary at best. Thank you for starting the thread, Stoaty!

 

[Stoaty]

OK, here is the list of cities I have gotten data on so far:

Santa Monica, CA
Boston, MA
Fort Lauderdale, FL **
Ridgecrest, CA **
San Francisco, CA
Portland, OR
Palm Springs, CA
Nashville, TN
Ota, Japan
Dubai, UAE
Omaha, Nebraska
Rygge, Norway
Denver, CO

** For comparison with earlier data obtained in a slightly different way

 

[GerryAZ]

Surfingslovak has developed a table of relative Battery Aging Factors based on the average effective temperature:

I am going to get additional data for other cities (so far have Santa Monica, CA and Boston, MA and Portland, OR) for him to include in the table.

What other cities would you like to see included?

I think you need some way to account for summer daytime average or maximum 24-hour average because Honolulu, for example, should be an ideal climate for EV's with its nearly constant moderate temperature. Your chart implies an aging factor almost as high as Phoenix and I don't think that is realistic.

As an example, we typically specify a maximum 24-hour average of 45 degrees C for electrical equipment for installation in the desert areas of Arizona. Manufacturer ratings are typically based on 30 degrees C 24-hour average for the rest of the country.

Gerry

Gerry

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Chicago area for sure (with their high gas prices, the LEAF is sure to be popular!)

also maybe Springfield MO. i never thought their weather was that extreme until i got to know someone who lives in the area. they had strings of 100º days that rivals Phoenix!

 

[surfingslovak]

I think you need some way to account for summer daytime average or maximum 24-hour average because Honolulu, for example, should be an ideal climate for EV's with its nearly constant moderate temperature. Your chart implies an aging factor almost as high as Phoenix and I don't think that is realistic.

Gerry, thanks for that. The aging factor for Honolulu is likely not accurate. I believe the underlying idea of using Arrhenius Law to asses the severity of different climates for passively cooled batteries is sound. I just didn't have a good way to process the image data from weatherspark.com.

Stoaty has addressed that problem, which should help us get better data, and include more locations. I didn't want to do that because of time constraints, and the concern that the effective temperatures I would calculate for new locations would not be accurate.

I could be wrong, but what you mentioned about electrical equipment likely pertains to their operational limits. I'm pretty sure that lithium ion batteries have similar constraints, and that's where the infamous reference to 120 F for more than 24 hours came from.

 

[cwerdna]

not quite sure that very large population centers should be included especially Los Angeles. the sheer size of the area means there is a huge temperature variance that is not present in smaller towns like Anaheim.

Well, from some Googling, it appears the city of Los Angeles is 468.67 square miles, which is yes, very large (vs. San Jose at 179.8 square miles). But, does that mean Dallas, TX at 385.8 square miles should be tossed too?

Keep in mind there are many suburbs and cities in the "Los Angeles" area but aren't in the city of Los Angeles (e.g. Santa Monica, Manhattan Beach, Pico Rivera, Torrance, Pasadena, etc.)

Yes, I initially picked locations I had anecdotal data for, and places where I could reach Leaf owners and get some feedback. This was done to help vet the model, and make sure that it's providing useful data and a good point of reference. I think it would be best to cover all locations with significant EV adoption, and include a few beyond that for comparison (Dubai, Melbourne, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc). The biggest challenge there will be getting usable weather data. We need the amount of time spent in several temperature bands, not just annual average high and low temperatures. The quality and granularity of the climatic data will determine the value of the project. I would consider the table in its current form to be preliminary at best. Thank you for starting the thread, Stoaty!

I see.

I haven't followed the thread (threads?) where your model is being is discussed but I have brought up the concept of cooling degree days a few times before. I think those are more relevant than heating degree days, for the purposes of battery degradation. See http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/waskdays.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/nrmcdd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has an example of some data. Here's the # of cooling degree days for a few cities:

PHOENIX, AZ: 4355
SEATTLE C.O., WA: 192 (I'm guessing they mean city of, since Seattle is in King County)
SEATTLE SEA-TAC AP, WA: 173 (I'm pretty sure they're referring to Sea-tac Airport, rather than the city of SeaTac)
LAS VEGAS, NV : 3168
SACRAMENTO, CA: 1248
HONOLULU, HI: 4561

Unfortunately, for cities like Honolulu, it looks like it's the large # of days per year in which it is is above degrees vs. the extremes that you get it Phoenix during the summer months (and not so many outside it).

I'll have to take a closer look at weatherspark.com when I get a chance. I hadn't heard of that site until now.

 

[Stoaty]

I got data for Chicago and Memphis, and re-checked Honolulu. Surfingslovaks figures and mine for Honolulu match very closely. I wouldn't expect any significant change. The problem with Honolulu is that it never cools off.

 

[surfingslovak]

Well, from some Googling, it appears the city of Los Angeles is 468.67 square miles, which is yes, very large (vs. San Jose at 179.8 square miles). But, does that mean Dallas, TX at 385.8 square miles should be tossed too?

Certainly, but keep in mind that micro-climates have significant implications for what we are trying to do, and calculating one singular value for large metropolitan areas will be virtually impossible. Not without some caveats anyway.

I haven't followed the thread (threads?) where your model is being is discussed but I have brought up the concept of cooling degree days a few times before. I think those are more relevant than heating degree days, for the purposes of battery degradation. See http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/waskdays.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/nrmcdd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has an example of some data. Here's the # of cooling degree days for a few cities:

Yes, cooling days could be useful if you can derive an aging factor from that index. Personally, I think that this type of data will simply not be granular enough to permit such calculation with a good degree of accuracy.

 

[Stoaty]

Added Salt Lake City, checked Phoenix (data for Phoenix very close to the data Surfingslovak has). Any more special requests?