What's the thing you hate most about your Leaf?

[TomT]

Not quite:

• Speed Aero Drag Total drag
  0 mph 0 N = 0 kg
  35 mph 94 N = 10 kg + roll resistance (280 N) = 38 kg
  60 mph 278 N = 28 kg + roll resistance (280 N) = 57 kg
  80 mph 495 N = 50 kg + roll resistance (280 N) = 79 kg
  100 mph 773 N = 79 kg + roll resistance (280 N) = 107 kg
  120 mph 1113 N = 113 kg+ roll resistance (280 N) = 142 kg

But the lower your speed the less relevant drag is. At 65mpg drag is everything. At 35mph you can largely ignore it when compared to other losses.

 

[nerys]

Not quite what? You data appears to support precisely what i am saying. The drag increae per mph is smaller below 50mph compared with 60 and above.

So the difference between 40 and 50 is small while the difference between 50 and 60 is much larger and grows as you increase speed to 80mph (then goes nuts above that)

If you need a 65 to 75mph highway cruiser then sure you want more aero. But you lack the kw for a really usable highway cruiser.

This is a commuter car that is highway compatible. Utility is more important to me ie space and cargo.

And the penalty for this is minor at lower commuter speeds.

This is why the mpg of a metro is so directly linked to your speed

It is so under powered the motor simply struggles under the aero load.

Lower speed means the aero is a smaller component of your overall power demands

As you go faster aero becomes a larger and larger component of your power demand.

Look at your own numbers man. Look at the aero load in relation to you rolling load.

What percentage is aero versus rolling at 40 and at 65. Huge difference.

 

[davidcary]

Of course aero losses go up with every mph. There is no disagreement here.

40 of course does not equal 50. Your "real world" experience doesn't jive with physics and other Leaf owner's "real world" tests.

All commutes are not the same. I commute and would like to go 80 mph. I have a 10-15 mile commute depending on location. Some of is at 45 mph and some at speed limit 65 with some traffic moving at 80. I don't often drive 80 but sometimes I do. The aero on the Leaf could be improved and it would be of significant benefit to me.

 

[nerys]

At 80mph? Absolutely. You would reap pretty big bonuses with improved aero.

You miss my point. Aero drag increases while larger at higher speeds of course are also not linear.

If the aero is small enough and the efficiency is high enough it gets difficult to see aero benifits with small velocity changes. 40 to 50 for example.

My point was/is that the aero penalty going from 40 to 41 is smaller than the aero penalty going from 64 to 65. It is not linear. It "grows" as your speed rises. Not sure if its exponential or not but i hope you sure my point. This is probably why statistical noise erased any measurable change in my runs at 40 and 50 mph. I have noticed once you hit 55mph things go down hill rapidly as far as range goes. The car is simply not geared for high speed so its inefficient at high speeds. For better highway cruising you would also need to either sacrifice low speed efficiency or install a 2 speed transmission to bring down those rpms at highway speeds.

I think the aero is pretty good for its designed operating envelope and itility considerations.

They already sacrifice rear seat headroom to aero. I know. I can not sit in the rear seat at all.

If you want better aero you can have it especially at your 80mph speed enevelope.

Remove the "wing" and install a kammback. The rest of the car is pretty damned optimized for aero already. Just the tail is giving you a ton of base drag like a pig. Ie its got a big butt.

That is the only part of the car that needs major aero attentikns. I mean Its even got a fully belly pan already.

 

[TomT]

That aero drag at 35 is low enough to ignore. It is not.
But I'm growing tired of debating this with you so have a nice day.

Not quite what?

 

[nerys]

Sorry. 10kg is just over 25% of listed drag. The BEST your going to remove from that is what? 25% if you heavily aero optimize the body even more than it already is. So what? 2.5kg. I am sorry if you disagree but YES that is low enough to ignore and low enogub to vanish into statiscal noise.

Now at 80mph your talking 50kg. It is now the dominant force in play dropping even 20% will result in a saving eqaul to 100% of the drag at 35mph.

You inability to understand this is sadly not my problem. I am not trying to be mean just realistic and factual.

 

[kubel]

At what point you choose to ignore is not something you can easily argue. Some people choose to ignore spiders. I choose not to. They are no more incorrect than I am.

 

[nerys]

I disagree. One is an intangible phobia that is hard to ignore since it resides in your brain.

You are trying to argue for the insanely expensive redesign of a vehicke that will harm its performance and utility for a very very large portion of its user base to give you an extra 30 miles or less in a situation. That only an extremely small portion of its user base will care to take advantage of.

This is not logical or reasonable by any valid definition of those words.

To get the kind of performance you want you would need to stick the leaf drivetrain into an ev1 or insight body.

Ie a 2 seater with no cargo space. You have just eliminated probably 75 to 85 % of the market for the car.

Car fails. That simple.

Far easier would be to retain capacity and utility and simply use a larger battery to achiece the same result. (More highway range) and maybe have a 2 speed transmission to further optimize highway performance.

Hopefully this would be an option because it would eliminate me as a buyer. I do not want a transmission. Even a 2 speed one as that is simply more complexity in moving parts to fail.

The car is already borderline too narrow and too short. The only way to reduce drag besides base drag is to shorten it and narrow it. Again alienating a huge portion of your market.

You can fix base drag with a kamback and probably get a lot of what you want since that is the only place where the car is really bad aero wise.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

A low aerodynamic drag car can be bigger and still be low drag. The Model S has the same CdA as the gen 3 Prius.

It is not just 30 miles, either. If the Leaf had the same consumption as the IMW 'Seven', then it would have ~165 mile range on today's battery. That's ~130Wh/mile at 60-70MPH in a 4 seat 2,900 pound car.

That is nearly double the range.

 

[nerys]

I can not believe we are having this discussion. Your trying to equitably compared a hand made steel foam carbon fiber $110,000 one with a $28,000 mass produced automobile.

Seriously? You don't see the flaws in such a comparison.?

 

[Nubo]

At what point you choose to ignore is not something you can easily argue. Some people choose to ignore spiders. I choose not to. They are no more incorrect than I am.

You're both saying the same things but somehow manage to keep arguing. :lol:

 

[moshelevy]

Back to the original topic....

I took delivery of my 2015 SL Premium a few days ago. I've got some dislikes already, most of which have probably been mentioned along the course of this thread:

1) Orange peel would be a compliment to the subpar quality of this paint
2) The horn is wimpy compared to any garden variety moped
3) Not having the locks automatically unlock in Park is annoying, as is having to manually unlock the door in Park (as opposed to pulling the handle twice, which is standard everywhere else).
4) Overall, the car has a cheap, tinny feel - my former Volt was a more substantial feeling car.
5) Some of the controls are not intuitive, e.g., the hands free system takes twice the steps of my former Volt to operate.
6) Not much gusto on the highway
7) Placement of the touch screen is smack dab where the sun comes through the rear windows on the way to work, washing out the image entirely.

There is a good deal to like as well, of course. I leased this Leaf to tide me over to all the wonderful Gen 2 cars coming out next year and in 2017. New Volt, new Leaf, Prius update, etc. So it will be OK for that length. It's a natural progression to pure EV for me - from 2008 Prius Touring to 2012 Volt and now this.

-MKL

 

[NeilBlanchard]

I can not believe we are having this discussion. Your trying to equitably compared a hand made steel foam carbon fiber $110,000 one with a $28,000 mass produced automobile.

Seriously? You don't see the flaws in such a comparison.?

I am comparing the design and the relative efficiencies. That is a completely legit comparison - the IMW 'Seven' shows the potential of an electric car. If the same design principles are used, the next generation Leaf could have a lot longer range with the same battery.

That means it costs the same - but drives a lot farther. What's not to like?

The first thing I would love to have on my Leaf is to have it coast by default, and then have two or three levels of regen available for when I want to slow down. Coasting uses the kinetic energy of the moving car to do exactly what is needed most: move the car forward.

By the way, when the aero drag is low, then the coasting is much better.

 

[Websterize]

Probably the exterior aesthetics. It looks as if someone stuck a straw in the tail pipe and blew. Oh, wait …

More importantly, what bothers me most about the Leaf is that it scored so poorly in the IIHS test that simulates a small-overlap-front collision. And that the parking break is a large piece of steel hanging inches in front of my left shin.

The structure of the driver's space, especially the footwell, blows.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/nissan/leaf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Nubo]

Probably the exterior aesthetics. It looks as if someone stuck a straw in the tail pipe and blew. Oh, wait …

More importantly, what bothers me most about the Leaf is that it scored so poorly in the IIHS test that simulates a small-overlap-front collision. And that the parking break is a large piece of steel hanging inches in front of my left shin.

The structure of the driver's space, especially the footwell, blows.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/nissan/leaf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The parking brake pedal is a result of moving away from the electric parking brake of the early models. Those have a switch rear of the shifter, to operate the parking brake. Of course, people complained about THAT too. :lol:

 

[Andrei]

The windows fog up way too much. And the seat track is too far out from under the seat so I hit that with my left foot getting in.

 

[WMTribe90]

I own my 2013 S Leaf.

Dislikes:

Windshield fluid doesn't spray top half of windshield.
Windshield fogs up easily in winter and the defrost is poor.
Interface with I-Pod is touchy.
Erratic steering wheel heater.
Doors don't automatically unlock in park and I have to fumble for the tiny unlock bottom in the dark.
Insurance cost higher than with comparably priced ICE.
Bluetooth voice commands are unnecessarily complex.

Likes:

Fun to drive with great acceleration (0-40 mph).
No gas/tailpipe emissions
Quiet and smooth ride
Saves money ($1,000/year)
Promoting a green technology
Potential for long term ownership with battery replacement (lack of engine wear)
Heated seats
Head space/high ceiling

Battery degradation and winter range loss were known to me before I bought, so I'd already accounted for those. Not to say they aren't concerns, but I never felt blindsided (thank to this website). My commute will allow for accommodate both winter loss and battery degradation for the expected "life" of the battery. At 1.5 years and 14,000 mile I have not noticed any appreciable battery degradation yet.

 

[kennyboy]

Range.

 

[jlsoaz]

2012 SL:

Basically will never forget that Nissan was the automaker to finally step up and make it possible for me to drive an EV, but with pretty much anything I can find good and bad things about it. With this car:

Dislikes:

- Range
- Automatic Transmission - I like it as far as pep by automatic transmission standards, and I like saving energy and the quietness, but there are times when it is just flat-out boring to me. (First automatic transmission car I've owned for any length of time). Not an EV issue but a basic driving preferences issue.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Umm, the Leaf has only one gear. It is a reduction gear, and that is why it is like and automatic, but it is neither a manual or a automatic shift. A clutch and an EV would be a bad thing.