Why do you want QC charging for the Leaf?

[DaveinOlyWA]

Garsh; your points of views are obvious. we all know what you are saying.

yes, you are correct; a 30 min QC is not going to be as convenient as a 5-10 minute fillup at the gas station. ok, so the sky is blue. kinda sucks for me because my favorite color is green. but it doesnt really suck that much. i like blue. just like green better (i have 2 blue cars...kinda funny. drive two of the "greenest" cars on the planet; a Prius and a Leaf and neither have Green as an option...)

so, we have a knock against the Leaf. there are actually a whole bunch of drawbacks to the Leaf. but there are a whole bunch of drawbacks to every single car on the market. so we weigh our needs, wants and desires with those drawbacks and make our purchasing decision and the Leaf will not be the car of choice. (actually there is no car of choice. the most popular car in the world is REJECTED by more 10 of every 11 buyers)

but anyway back to this QC thing. we have several options on that as well. we get car with a bigger battery that does not need QC that much or one that does allow us to be "free to roam about the country" but that is spendy. not for me... you might like it.

but i dont see the sense of having a 300 mile capacity when i am averaging 29.8 to 45.7 miles a day (daily average by month since purchase). i dont want to carry about all that extra weight. now, as far as the best size battery to carry around until we get these ultralight things going might be 150 miles or 50% more than what i have now. any more than that would put me out of the pricing game.

so we go back to that fillup thing. i have the "best" of both worlds. i can journey to the gas station about 47 times to fill up the Prius, each trip taking between 7 and 21 minutes out of my day. we had a guy with a PLEV Prius who had us track how much time it took from the minute we varied off our route to stop for gas and how long it took to get back into traffic.

now, this was when my daily commute took me right past the shopping center (Costco in Hawks Prairie Center. Lacey, WA) i got gas at primarily. as the crow flies a mere 150 yard detour. as you can see, sometimes is was breeze in, breeze out. i did not track all 47 trips mostly because i forgot to start the timer on my phone a few times and quite frankly, got tired of it. but did collect about 27 trips. only had 4 under 10 minutes. the medium time was about 15 minutes.

OR

i could spend 15 seconds plugging in my car about 4-6 times a week. granted, there is no QC here, but QC is a special case use for me. not day to day and special cases ALWAYS require time.

i love going to Mariner Baseball. we get tickets from work all the time so its pay for gas, parking and food and go. well, do i complain because it takes 45 minutes after the end of the game to get back on I-5 that is less than a mile away?... nope. that is all PART OF THE GAME!!

this is just part of the EV game. i do the gas game too. its not nearly as much fun though.

as far as Johnny goes, pick him up first, the QC on the way home while eating a swirl cone at DQ. trust me, kids want to relate and the sooner you do it after the "event" the more they like it.

 

[edatoakrun]

"timhebb" I've had my Leaf over a year now, living near downtown Los Angeles where I'm surrounded by dozens of public L2 charging locations. They are my primary charging resource. I don't even have an L2 installed at home - if I need to charge at home, trickle charging works fine for me. For me, L2 charging IS quick charging...

Have you ever considered the actual cost of your present charging habits?

Who do you think is currently paying for all your L2 parking places, conveniently empty and available to you, wherever you need them?

What would the charge per kWh be, if you were actually paying those costs yourself?

Do you honestly believe this L2 model is scalable when BEVs are widely adopted?

When we reach a 25% percentage of EVs in the passenger fleet, will we reserve 25% of public parking places for EVs only, and put a L2 at each one?

You cannot project an expansion of your current personal subsidy, to be an economic model for BEV recharging.

L2 public charging is a dead-end road for EVs.

 

[DaveEV]

3. If I could charge my vehicle in 5-10 minutes, sure. But I just don't think the general public is going to see 30-minute charging to be as convenient as stopping at a gas station, and therefore it won't help much.

With well-spaced QCs, I think you will find that you only need 5-10 minutes of QC to make it to your destination. Ideally you'll top off somewhere around 1-3 bars where the car can accept maximum charge rate of 50 kW - 10 minutes will get you about 8 kWh or enough for about 25 miles additional range and you'll be around half-way full.

Longer than 10 minutes and the charge will start to slow down as the charging algorithm switches to constant voltage to prevent damage to the pack - the 2nd 10 minutes of QC might get you about 6 kWh and the last 10 minutes of QC might get you about 4 kWh.

Remember that daily miles driven typically follows a bell curve, so you'll be more likely to need a quick top-off than a full quick charge to reach your destination.

 

[GoingGreener]

Because it's DOPE! LOL, I don't take drugs, smoke or drink.

We finally got the chance to try it out a couple of weekends ago. There are 3 in the SF Bay Area currently.
It's an awesome option to have.
~20mins to charge to 80% on DCQC vs. ~4hrs L2 charging with a 3.3kw charger on board (or even ~2hrs with a 6.6kw charger).
Just have enough time to get coffee (actually, I do take this drug) or go for a brief walk/tidy up your car, etc.

The previous posts already mention when QC is useful for so many of us, esp. if we want to drive electric as much as we can. If battery technology and costs don't change much, we would, again, choose the QC option for our next EV. But, I do understand some owners really don't need it, so a choice to buy it/not is good.

In some places L1 chargers are most useful, in others L2s are, but in others, well spaced-out dual-ported QC would be great. I think as early adopters, we're helping to figure all this out. It's exciting and frustrating at the same time.

For the OP and others who haven't had a chance to try QCing, I hope, soon, you can use your QC port/go along with someone who has one. It's a great experience whether you might want to use it or not.

 

[IBELEAF]

It depends on your needs and where you live, but since most people who got the car managed without using I think it's not a requirement. Personally, I see it as a fun thing to do once or like available emergency charge option, but I wouldn't want to QC regularly knowing there is a risk of accelerating battery degradation.

 

[Pipcecil]

I do agree as the vehicles have a longer range, QC becomes more important, but to me, QCing is quite invaluable.

Living in a large metro area (DFW) I CANNOT make it across one way and back. And with businesses/friends/family spread across the entire metroplex area, it would have made it impossible with the leaf. But with the QC currently available here, I can go almost anywhere in the metroplex area and back home without visiting a friend for 10+ hours for a 120v charge or finding a Level 2 and having them pick me up. In small towns or towns without an extensive metro area, I can see it not being as much use. For a car that maxes at 100 mile range, QC is still not for long trips unless someone is adventurous. But for mobility in a large metro area like dallas-fort worth, houston, etc. its almost a requirement.

 

[91040]

+1 Pipecil

As a freelancer in the Greater Los Angeles area, my work occurs as far West to Santa Barbara, East to Palm Desert, South to San Juan Capistrano and North to Santa Clarita. Even when not working at the extremes, multiple locations in a day can easily exceed driving range with or without L2 at the work location.

I knew that my driving regimen pushed the envelope for this car and the charging infrastructure when I bought it. It is a fun challenge to make it work. When it doesn't, I use my wife's NGV Civic or rent. So far, only needed to do that about 5 times in the year that I have had the Leaf.

Actual experiences-
60 mile freeway to a 2 hour job with no charging capability. Approximate 30 minute charge with QC on return route gives me enough energy to get home easily. Done this 3 times now and hopefully more.

Arrived at a job with 2 bars of energy. Charged on L2 for 2 hours to 6 bars. Need minimum 9 bars to get home. Instead of waiting 1.5 hours, used the QC enroute for about 20 minutes and easily made it home.

130 mile trip with 1 hour, L2 charge enroute. Arrived with LBW. QC at destination to 80% and then topped off using L1. 95 miles on return trip to QC. Charged approximately 30 minutes and got home with energy to spare.

Would I do this if the QC cost $10 to 15 (or more)? It would depend on the situation. To make it from one job to the next, unequivocally. For convenience, probably. If avoidable without undue inconvenience, i.e. have a meal, shop, errands while on L2, no.

 

[planet4ever]

As battery size and range increases, QC becomes more attractive and viable.

Yes and no. It is true that larger batteries can accept a faster charge, so that in theory a battery of any size could be charged in half an hour at a 2C rate. (In practice, of course, the charging rate tapers off as the battery approaches full.) So, yes, a half hour stop every three hours would be much more attractive than one every hour.

On the other hand, this would require some very high amperages or voltages. That means bulkier charging "nozzles", much larger and more expensive external chargers, and dramatically higher demands on the power system. I don't think that is going to happen any time soon. So you had better plan on 50kW fast charging, which still means an average speed of 40 mph for long distance travel if you are driving 60 mph, no matter how big your battery is. (Curiously, if you were driving 75 mph your average speed would still be about 40 mph, because you would spend nearly half your time charging!)

Back to the OP question, I have not used QC yet, but would like to so we can take the LEAF to visit our granddaughter. It's 170 miles round trip, and we now finally have one QC station on the route, so we could theoretically go and return in one day. (We can't stay overnight in their home.) But to plan that means we have to rely on that charger twice, and it is a Blink. Need I say more? I would have no qualms if there were more choices. As indicated above, I don't think QC is a good answer for long distance travel. However, as others have suggested, it could be very useful as an occasional 2X range extender.

Ray

 

[ztanos]

I live in GA and seeing my good neighbors to the north hogging all the QCs. :lol: I live just close enough that I could make it to the first QC in Tenn (maybe). If I get to the first one, I can make it to Kentucky. Now I just need Kentucky and Ohio to come on board and I can visit my family in Ohio. I figure if I can go 80 miles per charge I would have to recharge 9 times. While this wouldn't be a fun trip it isn't out of the question. The trip would go from being 12 hours in my ice car to being 18-20 hours in my leaf (dependent on speed.) That just means I would need to stop and charge up overnight (or be exhausted when I get there.) Not that big of a deal, just would be nice if it were quicker than 30 mins, too.

 

[planet4ever]

I figure if I can go 80 miles per charge I would have to recharge 9 times. While this wouldn't be a fun trip it isn't out of the question. The trip would go from being 12 hours in my ice car to being 18-20 hours in my leaf (dependent on speed.)

So about 800 miles? 20 hours does seem possible (see my previous post), but not 18 hours. And it will actually take you a lot longer than that if you try to get 80 miles per charge. Remember that the "25-30 minute" QC is from LBW to 80%, so is about 2/3 of the battery capacity. The only way to get 80 miles out of that is to get 6+ miles/kWh, and that means traveling less than 40 mph. A QC from VLBW to 100% will take an hour or more, and might give you 80 miles if you hold your speed under 55.

The laws of physics and battery chemistry are tough to get around.

Ray

 

[EcoCarRental]

From the perspective of an EV rental car operator we want QC because the people who rent our EV's will need QC as they travel around Maui and not have to wait hours for a recharge. For example, we need a QC near the entrance (~7000 ft elevation) to Haleakala National Park (http://www.nps.gov/hale/index.htm), to be able to continue on to the top of the mountain (~10,000 ft elevation). And those who will drive to Hana (far east side of Maui). For these types of drives QC is the only practical option. There is currently a plan to install at least 5 QC around Maui, and we're really looking forward to that.

Check out EV efforts on Maui here - http://maui.hawaii.edu/eva/home/

Shaun

 

[walterbays]

So about 800 miles? 20 hours does seem possible (see my previous post), but not 18 hours.

Real world record, 779.2 miles in 24 hours including stops for humans as well as for the car. (They noted that the time to fill the battery with QC equaled the time to fill the driver with coffee.) http://green.autoblog.com/2011/06/02/video-dutch-duo-drives-nissan-leaf-779-2-miles-in-24-hours/

For me in San Diego, QC would change my Leaf from the best city car into the best regional car. Now I can go anywhere in the county - possibly as far as Julian if I spent some time recharging in Poway - as far as San Clemente if I spend enough time charging before I return. QC would make those 50-60 mile one-way trips trivial even if no destination charging were to be found. It would open convenient access to many other destinations within about 100-150 miles, e.g., Disneyland, Los Angeles, Long Beach, Hollywood, Big Bear, Palm Springs.

QC will be most useful in corridors where two urban centers are within 100 miles of each other. In such places like Southern California I expect we will see usage as high as in Japan if/when the QC stations are built. Seattle to Portland, Nashville to Knoxville, and Dallas to Houston are all a bit far for anyone but the most dedicated. Chatanooga to Knoxville (112 miles) seems reasonable, and we may get some good U.S. QC usage information from that corridor - if our friends at Cracker Barrel start keeping ICE cars out of the QC parking. :-(

 

[ztanos]

I figure if I can go 80 miles per charge I would have to recharge 9 times. While this wouldn't be a fun trip it isn't out of the question. The trip would go from being 12 hours in my ice car to being 18-20 hours in my leaf (dependent on speed.)

So about 800 miles? 20 hours does seem possible (see my previous post), but not 18 hours. And it will actually take you a lot longer than that if you try to get 80 miles per charge. Remember that the "25-30 minute" QC is from LBW to 80%, so is about 2/3 of the battery capacity. The only way to get 80 miles out of that is to get 6+ miles/kWh, and that means traveling less than 40 mph. A QC from VLBW to 100% will take an hour or more, and might give you 80 miles if you hold your speed under 55.

The laws of physics and battery chemistry are tough to get around.

Ray

Yeah, I was just rough gestimating. I was more postulating as it wouldn't even be close to possible at the current time. I would love to do it, so that I could show off my car to the fam, but I already have it in my mind that it would be a two day trip.

 

[keydiver]

I don't really have any need for QC. It was a neat thing to try it when I drove to Miami for the LEAF Drive Event, but I wouldn't do it again. I work from home, so the LEAF is perfect for 99% of my driving needs. For the other 1% I have my 2006 PHEV Prius. If I run too many errands in one day, so I don't have enough time to recharge before we go out to dinner, we simply take the Prius, no inconvenience whatsoever.
I can understand that won't work for those of you who don't have a second car, or those who have a changing drive each day, but L2 is just fine with me for now. In fact, this thread has got me thinking that maybe I should have saved the $2000 extra I paid for the SL package, except for the bragging rites of being able to point people to the QC port and tell them I *could* charge in only 25 minutes.

 

[Stoaty]

I don't have a dog in this fight (2011 SV, no QC), but I can think of some situations (e.g., didn't set L1 charge properly, no charging occurred while I was gone for 6 hours) where QC probably would have been more convenient than L2. No regrets on not having QC, but I think that more QC will help range anxiety for the "pragmatists" Nissan is supposedly targeting for future sales. It will also turn out to be very useful on a few occasions.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

the reasons I am VERY much looking forward to the QC network that is opening up here in WA and OR:
-the more I drive electric the less I ever want to drive my ICE again, QC's make it possible to leave the ICE at home more!
-I am centrally located in the Seattle Metro Area, just two QC's from Portland OR, two QC's from Vancouver BC, one QC from Leavenworth for climbing or Stevens Pass for skiing, the list goes on and on. there are lots of wonderful places in WA state that are just one or two QC's away.
-QC's make replacing our ICE with another EV a real possibility.
-Also, I want to be able to drive fast without worrying about range, even in the rain or when I want to use the heater when it's cold... all without having to fret about squeezing every last mile out of a charge.
-the more I understand about Li-ion batteries, the more I realize that leaving the battery closer to 5 bars (true 50%) when idle is more ideal for battery life. The main thing that caused me to constantly top up the battery to 80 and 100% was uncertainty of plans and not wanting to be left short. a QC network will allow me to relax about range and cycle the battery at a lower SOC on a daily basis, presumably extending the life of the battery, as the actual number of QC's will likely be relatively low and result in little additional clock hours at a high SOC.
-Quick charging is cool, it's kind of mind blowing once you experience it! It's high tech and people are impressed that it's even possible. I think the future of EV's depends in part on impressing people with performance and convenience, EV's are fast, QC's are convenient, more people will get excited about EV's when they can drive them fast and charge them fast!

 

[garsh]

Thanks for the replies, everybody! You have indeed opened my eyes to some scenarios that I hadn't considered.

I can also see QC for business use where a person is driving much of the day such as taxi or delivery service.

From the perspective of an EV rental car operator we want QC because the people who rent our EV's will need QC as they travel around Maui and not have to wait hours for a recharge.

Various business reasons. These seem like scenarios where QC charging is perfect.

My scenario is a one stop along the way QC to make ~100 mile trips at highway speeds with significant elevation changes.

Living in a large metro area (DFW) I CANNOT make it across one way and back.

QC will be most useful in corridors where two urban centers are within 100 miles of each other.

Since I'm in Pittsburgh, this "close urban centers" scenario didn't occur to me. I still don't think I'd want to deal with QC charging often in this scenario, but if I only expected to need it a few times a year, it does seem useful.

If other people want to get somewhere fast and burn their gasoline, pollute the planet, give their hard-earned money to Big Oil/foreign countries, that's their choice.

...my wife was delighted to drive it for a week in exchange for her gas-guzzling Prius.

This is more of what I expected to hear. People whose primary purpose for going electric is to reduce dependence on oil (for various reasons), and will gladly put up with the QC charging delay to keep from using a gas-powered vehicle. This does not describe me, nor the general public I'm afraid.

You must not own an electric car...

i am guessing you dont have an EV...

I'm a proud owner of a black 2012 SV.

 

[DANandNAN]

Remember QC typically charges to 80%. So at highway speeds, expect 50 miles or so between charges. That will be much less than an hour driving.

Exactly. There are folks that this works for, but the vast majority of drivers don't want to double their transit times on trips longer than 65 miles.

 

[DANandNAN]

What scenario do you foresee that makes QC charging in the Leaf worthwhile?

My scenario is a one stop along the way QC to make ~100 mile trips at highway speeds with significant elevation changes. I love snowboarding, and getting to the mountain from southern California is a big deal to me. Fortunately, there is a quick charge station at the base of the San Bernardino mountains. A typical snowboarding trip consists of ~60 miles at freeway speeds to the base, a quick breakfast, then about 40 miles to the slopes. In this case I would use the QC during my breakfast, and it would not significantly impact my trip time.

On the way back, I could do another QC on the way back down (and stop for a snack!) to give me a little bit of extra range on the freeway. I could also do Level 1 at the mountain, but being careful to only go to 80% so I could still use regen.

The other trip that Southern Californians would like to see possible is a trip to Vegas. You'd probably need two or three QC's to do it, but if it was cheaper than gas, I could see a lot of us youngins trying to get out there this way. A LOT of people around here use "the trip to vegas" as a standard of metric. At the very least, think of QC as a very powerful marketing tool to the uninformed that think charging an electric car takes forever. Remember these are folks that think you have to drive somewhere to get your fill up.

And before Tony butts in with "just drive the Prius" if this isn't viable/too expensive, I have no intentions of buying a second car. My other option is to hitch a ride with friends driving an ICE up, and split the fuel charge. I'd pay up to $50 for a set of QC's to get me there and back, as I pay more than this in gas to make the same trip already.

Jeremy

Are you paying the actual amount (including a profit) to the station owner at the base of the San Bernardino mountains? You say you would, but you don't say if you are. If so, cool, I hope he continues to provide it and finds it profitable. Obviously he's going to need a lot of customers though.

The same question would be asked about the Vegas stations. And, I'll add that I wouldn't have sat for a couple of hours to get to Vegas when I was young. I'd have taken my ICE. I think most folks still will. I can't imagine range anxiety in a desert where there's a station that you hope is working when you get there.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i am guessing you dont have an EV...

I'm a proud owner of a black 2012 SV.

oh ya... i guess i coulda checked your avatar. ya, its just options. my SO works in Centrailia which is where a QC is located. its 32 miles and the Leaf on a full charge easily makes it there and back even in winter. as far as when that trip needs to be made, its always a known thing (she normally drives the Prius...except when its out of gas... :roll: )

but the problem is that if a unexpected need to go there happened and the Leaf is not fully charged it makes the trip difficult (in Summer) or impossible (in Winter) but having the ability to plug into the QC for 10 minutes is all i would need to get back.

now, i am pretty anal about when to plug in and where. i dont use timers and rarely charge to 100 % or 80%. i charge to 40-90% based on my next day's expected needs but most people are not that way.

so, the QC is really for people thinking about EVs. sure i will use it if the need arises (hope to use it today just to say i did!!)

what kind of driving do you do?