Would you buy a 2011 With 25,000 Miles ?

[o00scorpion00o]

Hi everyone,

Would I be mad ? does anyone expect the Leaf to have decent range after 100,000 miles ?

And what should I watch out for ? would it be a good idea to bring a gid meter , or just rely on the dash battery reading ?

The Leaf costs 27,500 Euro's (35,700 USD) new here currently and that's a saving of nearly 10k if I can get it for 18,000 or so (23,884 USD).

The Leaf can't be leased here.

Is there any likely hood the battery can be replaced for a new one rather than repair the old one ? maybe higher capacity, is there any information on cost of a new pack yet ?

I probably wouldn't be in a position for awhile yet but when the time comes I would like not to spend so much on a new one.

Sorry for all the questions.

Mark

 

[smkettner]

Since heat seems to be the biggest factor in battery capacity loss I think you may have little to worry about in Ireland.
Look for at least 11 capacity bars. (these are the tiny bars to the right starting with bottom 2 in red)
If the 50 to 70 mile range works for you... go for it.

 

[Stoaty]

Would I be mad ? does anyone expect the Leaf to have decent range after 100,000 miles ?

Check the Wiki for our best guess:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can download a spreadsheet for the Battery Aging Model to test various assumptions. There is one city in Ireland in our database (average annual temperature and amount of cycling of the pack are the two main determinants of battery pack life).

Would it be a good idea to bring a gid meter?

I wouldn't buy a used Leaf without one. The owner needs to charge to 100% and leave the Leaf plugged in for another 4-6 hours to balance the battery pack right before you test. It also depends on what range you need for the Leaf to be useful for you.

Is there any likely hood the battery can be replaced for a new one rather than repair the old one ? maybe higher capacity, is there any information on cost of a new pack yet ?

Yes, that is a possibility, but we don't know the cost yet. Higher capacity replacement I would doubt.

 

[edatoakrun]

Hi everyone,

Would I be mad ? does anyone expect the Leaf to have decent range after 100,000 miles ?

And what should I watch out for ? would it be a good idea to bring a gid meter , or just rely on the dash battery reading ?...

IMO, neither the dash bars or a gid reading can give you an accurate indication of current battery capacity or driving range, or
(more importantly) how fast this LEAF will lose capacity and range in the future.

Nissan has announced the same "70%" capacity warranty for Europe, as for the USA, right?

If ~70% of "new" range is sufficient for your planned driving, No you are not "mad".

Since both the new and used prices you quoted are nearly 50% higher than for US LEAFs, its tough for me to judge the relative values.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Thanks for the replies guys,

According to the chart

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model

It expects me to have 70% capacity after 15 years ?

However I don't know how the previous owner will look after the battery, they could only charge to 100% and drive it 20 miles down the road come home and plug it in and not even think about it.

I would most likely have to fast charge if commuting for maybe 5-10 mins a day, so could I expect that by not fast charging for the entire 25 mins or so that it would be better for the battery ?

The electric company are installing a lot of fast chargers for 2013-14 and new ones to come on line soon. By the time they are finished there should be coverage on all the major routes. not bad !

The other downside is charger installation, would cost me around 1000 Euro's because I have a long distance from the meter to where I park.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

IMO, neither the dash bars or a gid reading can give you an accurate indication of current battery capacity or driving range, or
(more importantly) how fast this LEAF will lose capacity and range in the future.

Nissan has announced the same "70%" capacity warranty for Europe, as for the USA, right?

If ~70% of "new" range is sufficient for your planned driving, No you are not "mad".

Since both the new and used prices you quoted are nearly 50% higher than for US LEAFs, its tough for me to judge the relative values.

No such warranty for Leaf batteries in Europe, I will check it out again.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Since heat seems to be the biggest factor in battery capacity loss I think you may have little to worry about in Ireland.
Look for at least 11 capacity bars. (these are the tiny bars to the right starting with bottom 2 in red)
If the 50 to 70 mile range works for you... go for it.

Yes the temperature here rarely goes below -6C in winter to + 18C in Summer, there might be a few days it would peak to 24 C.

So pretty battery friendly I guess.

 

[evnow]

According to the chart

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model

It expects me to have 70% capacity after 15 years ?

I'd not expect more than 70% charge after 7 to 10 years, assuming low mileage.

Some Leafs in Seattle have experienced very low battery degradation after 2 years and 25k miles. Ireland could be similar.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Check the Wiki for our best guess:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can download a spreadsheet for the Battery Aging Model to test various assumptions. There is one city in Ireland in our database (average annual temperature and amount of cycling of the pack are the two main determinants of battery pack life).

Thanks for the Link. I presume the 15 years to 70% would mean by not charging to 100% and very little fast charging ?

 

[o00scorpion00o]

According to the chart

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model

It expects me to have 70% capacity after 15 years ?

I'd not expect more than 70% charge after 7 to 10 years, assuming low mileage.

Some Leafs in Seattle have experienced very low battery degradation after 2 years and 25k miles. Ireland could be similar.

We do pretty high mileage and if used as a commuter car maybe 20,000 a year, so after 5 years it would probably have 100,000 miles on top of what it may already have if buying 2nd hand.

If I could charge at my destination I would expect much greater cycle life, that is why I was wondering if a 5-10 min daily fast charge would be good or not for the battery ?

 

[edatoakrun]

...If I could charge at my destination I would expect much greater cycle life, that is why I was wondering if a 5-10 min daily fast charge would be good or not for the battery ?

Well, IMO, it might cause only a negligibly greater loss of capacity, or maybe a more significant loss (over many years) as compared to twice-a-day slow (AC) charging.

Is eventually arranging to get an hour or more of AC charging during the day, out of the question?

 

[o00scorpion00o]

...If I could charge at my destination I would expect much greater cycle life, that is why I was wondering if a 5-10 min daily fast charge would be good or not for the battery ?

Well, IMO, it might cause only a negligibly greater loss of capacity, or maybe a more significant loss (over many years) as compared to twice-a-day slow (AC) charging.

Is eventually arranging to get an hour or more of AC charging during the day, out of the question?

Well my contract ended a few weeks ago, I wasn't permanent so now I'm looking for more work, it's a pain obviously that has to take priority over car buying. However I did suggest it to them and they were saying "when I get and EV they will install one, but they think one car fast charges at a time, I think they thought that one charger would do all but all you would need is a 3kw outlet, but anyway they thought they knew best.

I wish they would bring in a law that chargers be installed in work places and offer grants to do it, but only the people that need to charge that a full charge won't get them home would be allowed to use them, it would cut down the cost tremendously.

But there will be a fast charger on route installed soon, I'd have to detour but I think that if I was doing 100 miles or so a day that I would need to replenish around 10 kw/hrs based on maybe 3.5 kw/hrs per mile ? say 60-65 mph ?

How long would a fast charge take to replenish 10 kw/hrs ?

If it takes 30 mins for 80% of 21 kw/hrs maybe 10 mins or less ?

 

[abasile]

How long would a fast charge take to replenish 10 kw/hrs ?
If it takes 30 mins for 80% of 21 kw/hrs maybe 10 mins or less ?

It depends greatly on your initial state of charge. Battery temperature also affects charging rate, as cold batteries can't charge quite as quickly. Fast charging generally goes faster if the battery has less charge. At ~20% SOC, the battery will usually accept charge at the rate of 50 kW. By the time the battery gets to 80% SOC, you're down to probably 10-20 kW.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

How long would a fast charge take to replenish 10 kw/hrs ?
If it takes 30 mins for 80% of 21 kw/hrs maybe 10 mins or less ?

It depends greatly on your initial state of charge. Battery temperature also affects charging rate, as cold batteries can't charge quite as quickly. Fast charging generally goes faster if the battery has less charge. At ~20% SOC, the battery will usually accept charge at the rate of 50 kW. By the time the battery gets to 80% SOC, you're down to probably 10-20 kW.

Would fast charging not warm up the battery ?

Would be great if they could get charging to 80% in 5 mins !

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Based on the spreadsheet, I would reach 70% capacity after 9 years and 180,000 miles.

If I do 20,000 a year I could be fast charging a lot by the end !

But that's better than I thought. But it doesn't take into account fast charging.

Is the spreadsheet based on 100% or 80% charge ?

Time for bed.

 

[evnow]

Based on the spreadsheet, I would reach 70% capacity after 9 years and 180,000 miles.

I'd not trust the spreadsheet for long term estimation. I don't think they had enough emperical evidence to come up with an accurate model.

 

[thankyouOB]

...If I could charge at my destination I would expect much greater cycle life, that is why I was wondering if a 5-10 min daily fast charge would be good or not for the battery ?

Well, IMO, it might cause only a negligibly greater loss of capacity, or maybe a more significant loss (over many years) as compared to twice-a-day slow (AC) charging.

Is eventually arranging to get an hour or more of AC charging during the day, out of the question?

Well my contract ended a few weeks ago, I wasn't permanent so now I'm looking for more work, it's a pain obviously that has to take priority over car buying. However I did suggest it to them and they were saying "when I get and EV they will install one, but they think one car fast charges at a time, I think they thought that one charger would do all but all you would need is a 3kw outlet, but anyway they thought they knew best.

I wish they would bring in a law that chargers be installed in work places and offer grants to do it, but only the people that need to charge that a full charge won't get them home would be allowed to use them, it would cut down the cost tremendously.

But there will be a fast charger on route installed soon, I'd have to detour but I think that if I was doing 100 miles or so a day that I would need to replenish around 10 kw/hrs based on maybe 3.5 kw/hrs per mile ? say 60-65 mph ?

How long would a fast charge take to replenish 10 kw/hrs ?

If it takes 30 mins for 80% of 21 kw/hrs maybe 10 mins or less ?

u hilite and important impediment for buyers; that they might change jobs and be forced into a longer commute, and the LEAF doesnt have the flexibility to accommodate that. I know one of the factors in my purchase was that i was almost certainly working at the last job i will have, and i would not be commuting further than 25 miles as i used to when i was younger.
it was a gamble, but i took it.
it is much harder for younger folks to count on their job and commute matching the life of the LEAF.

 

[edatoakrun]

...If I do 20,000 a year I could be fast charging a lot by the end !...

Are you so sure you will be driving that many miles every year for the next 9 years?

No way you might change your lifestyle, to not waste as much time and energy, as you now do by driving that much?

If you do continue driving that many miles, with present and future Irish petrol prices, wouldn't it be far cheaper to buy a new LEAF or a replacement battery pack every four or five years, than to continue driving an ICEV?

 

[Stoaty]

Based on the spreadsheet, I would reach 70% capacity after 9 years and 180,000 miles.

If I do 20,000 a year I could be fast charging a lot by the end !

But that's better than I thought. But it doesn't take into account fast charging.

Is the spreadsheet based on 100% or 80% charge ?

Be sure to read the many caveats about the Battery Aging Model that are listed on the Wiki.

1) The model attempts to match Nissan's claims about battery longevity; Nissan's claims could be wrong
2) The model does not include 80% or 100% charging (don't have any data to base that on)
3) Time frames over 10 years are suspect; anything beyond 5 years may be less reliable also
4) The model does not include Quick Charging
5) The model may be wrong - actual capacity retention may be more or less than indicated

Take the model with a very large grain of salt. In the end, it may be worth little more than you paid for it.

My Leaf is currently doing slightly better than the model, based on percent Gids at full charge, in spite of the fact that I used Santa Monica (although my Leaf spends 40 hours per week in the hot San Fernando Valley). Predicted for age of my Leaf (21 months) and mileage (16,000) is 252 Gids on a full charge; I got 257 Gids at my last full charge. Some have done close to what the model predicts, others have not done as well as the model predicts, for reasons that are unclear.

 

[abasile]

Would fast charging not warm up the battery ?

Yes, of course. But if the battery temperature is below freezing when you start charging, it will be slower. I haven't quantified exactly how much slower.

Would be great if they could get charging to 80% in 5 mins !

Maybe with a different battery chemistry and a much more massive charge plug! A flux capacitor wouldn't hurt. ;-)