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TomT
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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:07 pm

I've seen the i3 and driven if for a number of hours. It STILL is just as ugly and ungainly in proportion to me...
GRA wrote:I know what she meant, and I'll have to take her word for it for the moment (just as I have to take some people's word that the i3 isn't as butt ugly in person as it appears in pictures, because I haven't seen one yet).
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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:44 pm

evchels wrote:
GRA wrote: Besides, looks are all subjective.
This is really the point, re aesthetics. Just about any car on the road will be deemed good-looking or ugly by someone. The LEAF has been pretty polarizing itself, especially early on. As was the Prius. The Juke. And oh my goodness, the Cross Cab Murano....the list is endless.

But I agree with evnow that when production is limited as much as this one is likely to be, an automaker can take more risk in this regard. They only have to find a small number of people who find it attractive (or don't care what it looks like, as is the case for some EV drivers too). And a hydrogen vehicle will only be an emotional/values-driven purchase/lease in the near term; there's not much chance that it'll be a more pragmatic choice than its alternatives. So those who choose it are likelier to want it to be very distinctive looking so that it gets noticed.

And to put an even finer point on it, I'm not convinced Toyota cares how many people like its looks or want to buy it.
I'm more indifferent to looks than most, but are there really people who LIKE the looks of the Juke? :shock: The LEAF is undoubtedly polarizing, but at least it's distinctive. I've always assumed that the antipathy towards the Prius (2nd and 3rd gen; the 1st gen was so nondescript as to be unnoticeable) was more ideological in nature, but then I rather like the looks. Not that I could miss seeing them, as the only cars you're more likely to see around here are the ubiquitous CivCamCordorollas.

OT but what the hell, my list of the top five best looking EVs:

1. Focus Electric. Best looking of the gas compact hatchbacks (Mazda 3, Golf etc.), and just as nice as a BEV.

2. 500e. Tough call on this, I go back and forth between 1st and 2nd. It's hard to make a car this small with good proportions and looks, because customers can't be shrunk to fit except by self-selection. Thus, mini-compacts tend to look like babies, heads too big for their bodies. At best, these cars look cute. Fiat has pulled off a miracle here; these cars are cute but never cross the line into cutesy (except the ones that have had eyelashes added), and aggressive.

3. Model S/Volt (tie). The Model S is a nice albeit conventional looking big sedan (I know, it's a hatchback, but it has a sedan roofline). It looks like lots of other big sedans, which also look like it; I saw two same color Model S' turn a corner in front of me one after the other, or so I thought until I saw the 4 rings on the tail of the second. Jags, Mazda 6s, Lexus, you name it, they probably share several design cues. The one area I find less than pleasing is the rear fenders. The 'step' makes them look a bit broad in the beam, almost a middle-age spread, when seen from the rear.

The Volt is distinctive without being polarizing. The only car that I ever confuse it with when seen from some rear or side angles is the Scion tC. I rather like its looks, even though I know it has far too restrictive blindspots for me ever to be comfortable driving one.

4. Kia Soul EV. I like the Soul (I liked the Element too), as I appreciate functionality that has a little character.

5. i8/Panamera. Just because.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:25 am

evchels wrote:CARB is also considering boosting the CVRP rebate for FCVs because they're so expensive, which would be magnified if applied to a lease as cap cost reduction. (I can only imagine if Tesla had made that case!)
Yeah, no kidding. So on one hand they were considering a cap on EV rebates around $60k, but yet on the other hand, they want to increase the rebate on FCVs?

Makes no sense at all.

Instead, should just create a sliding scale based on range of vehicle (say 50 mile min, 250 mile max) and call it a day. Don't bother with "fast" refueling bonuses unless you're also going to give a bonus for the ability to refuel in 20 seconds (how long it takes to plug in at night and unplug in the morning).

I mean for road trips and people who can't charge at home or at work, fast refueling would be a definite benefit, but for all other scenarios getting 80% charge in < 30 minutes and 95% charge < 60 minutes is more than fast enough.

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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:52 am

drees wrote:Instead, should just create a sliding scale based on range of vehicle (say 50 mile min, 250 mile max) and call it a day. Don't bother with "fast" refueling bonuses unless you're also going to give a bonus for the ability to refuel in 20 seconds (how long it takes to plug in at night and unplug in the morning).
I think they should completely change the way it works. The credits should be based on KGs of CO2 emissions that the car can avoid. Ideally that should include lifecycle analysis rather than just the running emissions. This would give longer range vehicles more credits than smaller range vehicles (but a 200 mile EV wouldn't get double the credits as a 100 mile EV - since most trips would be within 100 miles). They should also use EPA range rather than city cycle range. Potentially a 5 seater or 7 seater gets slightly more credits than a 2 or 4 seater.

This will ensure no technology gets preferential treatment - just because they spend more money on lobbyists or whatever.
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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:11 pm

From GCR:

"Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan Photographed Testing In Southern California"

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109 ... california" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still fugly. To be fair, I understand the functional reason for the huge cooling intakes (they're needed because PEM fuel cells operate at fairly low temps and it's harder to get rid of moderate than higher temp heat, plus you've got to cool the motor and assorted electronics), but the rest of the car just looks unattractive.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:03 pm

Via ABG:
Toyota giving away its first hydrogen car in US
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/10/09/to ... car-in-us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

$100 raffle ticket, or 6/$500.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:35 pm

Via GCR:
2016 Toyota Mirai Priced At $57,500, With $499 Monthly Lease
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109 ... thly-lease" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:19 pm

PT Barnum was right...
GRA wrote:2016 Toyota Mirai Priced At $57,500, With $499 Monthly Lease
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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:40 pm

Seems to me, for someone who wants to push the transition to EVs or is just into tech, needs long freeway driving range (especially in winter) and fast refueling, but can't afford a Tesla and doesn't want a PHEV, this is a reasonable option, certainly a better value than a $50k RAV4 EV with half the range or less. Obviously it's still fugly, and you have to live somewhere there's fueling infrastructure, but since all the FCV manufacturers are restricting sales/leases to areas which have same, that shouldn't be a major issue.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:45 am

TomT wrote:PT Barnum was right...
GRA wrote:2016 Toyota Mirai Priced At $57,500, With $499 Monthly Lease
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/11/17/2016 ... 499-month/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has a press release. At least it includes free fuel "for up to three years."
More pics and a video w/Akio Toyoda himself speaking at http://www.engadget.com/2014/11/17/toyo ... northeast/.

Interestingly, http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/mail/4198334
5. Large external power supply system

The Mirai comes with a power supply system with a large capacity of approximately 60 kWh14 and maximum power supply capability of 9 kW15 for use during power outages, such as those following natural disasters. When a power supply unit (sold separately) is connected, it converts the DC power from the CHAdeMO power socket located inside the trunk to AC power and can power a vehicle-to-home16 system or a vehicle-to-load system. Consumer electronics can also be connected directly and used from the interior accessory socket (AC 100 V, 1,500 W).
That explains why I saw CHAdeMO in the trunk! (From pics 11 and 12 of http://www.engadget.com/gallery/toyota-mirai-fcv/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.)

I'm not exactly enthusiastic about the interior nor exterior of the car, besides not being a fan of FCEvs... It'll be interesting to see how it does.

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