LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:18 pm

I did make it quite clear that the 40kwh Leaf has no TMS.

I think that keeping 12 bars for at least 3 years is regarded by most Leaf drivers as "acceptable." I'm pretty sure that I also mentioned the capacity bar "gauge." I'll check....yup:
Later, as the cars lost that new car gleam (and sometimes even sooner) Leaf drivers in warmer climates began to discover that their cars' battery packs were degrading (losing capacity) at an alarming rate, as indicated both by the capacity “gauge” on the dashboard and by actual available driving range. The capacity bar display, which consists of 12 tiny capacity bars adjacent to the 12 much larger charge level bars, began to show missing capacity as soon as a few months after purchase in hotter states like Arizona, but then also began to show missing capacity bars in states like California, Florida, New Mexico...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4748
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:35 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I
I think that keeping 12 bars for at least 3 years is regarded by most Leaf drivers as "acceptable."
I do not, but I think the discussion should be tabled since we are not trying to foist our personal version of 'acceptable' on a new owner.

Lets just put out facts or best guesses as best we can and let people decide for themselves.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 12987
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
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Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:43 pm

I'm actually going by what I do best: observe over the years and remember at least the gist of what gets said here. There have been those of us who found the range inadequate at the bottom of the 12th bar, but I recall no one, ever, writing that they had 12 bars and felt the range loss was too great to be reasonable. Someone just posted in another topic that (s)he is happy with 2 or 3 bars gone after 5+ years. This is partly what Nissan intended with that awful bar "gauge" but it's also a sign that people do expect reasonable losses of capacity over longer periods of time. I will add something about Nissan having higher losses, though.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
Posts: 3041
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:45 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:You're doing this commute with a leaf right? And I can see that not working. But how does that translate to being applicable to a model 3?
Yes, in a LEAF 2014, 159 miles round trip, left home with full charge, DCQC on the way, workplace L2 to full, DCQC on the way home. As a temporary plan, with a known end date, it worked. For a lifestyle, not for me. I wouldn't recommend it. In fact, run away screaming if someone suggests it for more than a few weeks.

If I got to work early, I could use workplace charging. Before 8AM, I could easily get a charge and be ready for the long trek home that afternoon. If not, add a DCQC. Workplace L2 had/has a waitlist, sometimes waitlist was full before 10AM. Relying on workplace charging? Maybe if you are an early bird. Nearly 100% utilization.

Few people have the 100 plus mile commuting round trip to not be able to do with home charging and a Tesla Model 3, the Chevy Bolt or a Nissan LEAF E+. A few sales types, a few people with really remote houses, and so on. And at a hundred miles plus a day, leasing had better allow for 25,000+ miles a year, a high mileage lease, which sales types already know about.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

WetEV
Posts: 3041
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:06 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote: That's a theoretical loss. How about an actual one (ventura, CA): https://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-ba ... 000-miles/

So should still have 200 mile range after 150k miles.
The singular of data isn't anecdote. Sure, some will do very well. I own a 2014 LEAF that has done very well. So? Have a large enough sample to be meaningful? Have you looked for people with early capacity loss? There are such, you should know. Or you can learn, fairly quickly.

http://www.mychevybolt.com/forum/viewto ... f=3&t=8404
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Having an Active TMS really helps slow down battery degradation.
Not in wild dreams, in Yukon. Not at all, near Seattle where I live. Perhaps a little in the Bay area. More in LA. Probably enough to pay for the extra stuff and risk in Phoenix. Even more so in Lake Havasu City. Yes, a lot, in Death Valley.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

WetEV
Posts: 3041
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:22 pm

SageBrush wrote:We have the Tesla in my Sig. It is a fine car for trips. I often use it to travel 250 miles each way in a 4 season climate and have charged en-route twice or so. Both times I started the trip will less than a fully charged battery.
Report back when it is 8 years old.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:36 pm

WetEV wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote: That's a theoretical loss. How about an actual one (ventura, CA): https://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-ba ... 000-miles/

So should still have 200 mile range after 150k miles.
The singular of data isn't anecdote. Sure, some will do very well. I own a 2014 LEAF that has done very well. So? Have a large enough sample to be meaningful? Have you looked for people with early capacity loss? There are such, you should know. Or you can learn, fairly quickly.

http://www.mychevybolt.com/forum/viewto ... f=3&t=8404
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Having an Active TMS really helps slow down battery degradation.
Not in wild dreams, in Yukon. Not at all, near Seattle where I live. Perhaps a little in the Bay area. More in LA. Probably enough to pay for the extra stuff and risk in Phoenix. Even more so in Lake Havasu City. Yes, a lot, in Death Valley.
The lack of reported battery issues is what I'm relying on. That posting you cited is indicative of a cell issue that should be covered by warranty, not actual degradation of the pack as designed. Mary Barra recently claimed that GM has yet to replace a single Volt nor Bolt battery pack due to excessive degradation. I think GM and Tesla know a thing or two about taking care of their batteries so that drivers can rely on them to deliver the range that they need (defective cell issues not-with-standing).

You're letting your experience with a Leaf color your expectations of what others have done with their battery pack designs.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:39 pm

WetEV wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:You're doing this commute with a leaf right? And I can see that not working. But how does that translate to being applicable to a model 3?
Yes, in a LEAF 2014, 159 miles round trip, left home with full charge, DCQC on the way, workplace L2 to full, DCQC on the way home. As a temporary plan, with a known end date, it worked. For a lifestyle, not for me. I wouldn't recommend it. In fact, run away screaming if someone suggests it for more than a few weeks.

If I got to work early, I could use workplace charging. Before 8AM, I could easily get a charge and be ready for the long trek home that afternoon. If not, add a DCQC. Workplace L2 had/has a waitlist, sometimes waitlist was full before 10AM. Relying on workplace charging? Maybe if you are an early bird. Nearly 100% utilization.

Few people have the 100 plus mile commuting round trip to not be able to do with home charging and a Tesla Model 3, the Chevy Bolt or a Nissan LEAF E+. A few sales types, a few people with really remote houses, and so on. And at a hundred miles plus a day, leasing had better allow for 25,000+ miles a year, a high mileage lease, which sales types already know about.
You have a 2014 leaf (with 84 mile EPA range) for a 159 mile round-trip commute?! And you're projecting that experience onto others who are considering 238-mile EPA range and 310-mile EPA range EV's for their 200 mile round-trip commutes?!

Apple meet orange.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

WetEV
Posts: 3041
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:30 pm

LeftieBiker wrote: So I should cite a range of 40 miles for the 40kwh Leaf because that's what one down in capacity to just above warranty replacement will get in frigid weather?
Show your work.

LeftieBiker wrote:The cite I requested, BTW, was for a Bolt only getting less than 150 miles of range in Hawaii. The lower speed driving should cancel out most of the A/C use, so it seems you're being a bit silly...
Battery will lose capacity with time and miles, even in Hawaii. Actually, probably faster in Hawaii, due to higher average temperature. And TMS will help less, due to lower range of temperatures. If the TMS starts cooling at 35C, and the battery never gets warmer than the daily high (usual with a moderate commute), and the daily high is 31 C, then the TMS almost never turns on during the day and while driving. Yet there might be some gain. While the night time low is about 26 C, the TMS is reported cool the battery to 27C. Would be a tiny gain from a TMS.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

WetEV
Posts: 3041
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?

Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:14 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:The lack of reported battery issues is what I'm relying on.
So how many LEAF 2015 reported battery issues were there in 2016 or 2017? You're letting your experience with a LEAF color your expectations. Especially your experiences with the 2011 and 2012.
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:That posting you cited is indicative of a cell issue that should be covered by warranty, not actual degradation of the pack as designed. Mary Barra recently claimed that GM has yet to replace a single Volt nor Bolt battery pack due to excessive degradation.
GM got the chemistry right the first time. Credit GM. Also, the Volt was a plug in hybrid. Apple vs orange.

The Bolt is too new. Only a disaster of a battery pack would be showing enough degradation at this time. Yes, like Nissan's 2011 and 2012 battery pack. You're letting your experience with a LEAF color your expectations.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

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