SageBrush
Posts: 5265
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Electrify America Network

Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:46 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:38 pm
Now 26.1 kWh * $0.31/kWh - $8.09, which is about 47% more expensive.
Presuming 4 miles per kWh and 1000 miles a month driving, you are talking about under 30 cents a day cost difference and you give up the flexibility of using half your battery at DC fast charging for those pennies a day of savings.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 12259
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:12 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:49 pm
GRA wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:24 pm
^^^ Uh huh, and now with per kWh pricing no one will care what SoC they start at, or how their particular car charging profile tapers, or what the ambient or battery temp is and how that will affect their charge rate.

Instead, they will know exactly how much a given # of kWh will cost them without needing to consider any of that. Simple just like buying gas, and makes comparing prices easy. If you think station/network A is expensive, anyone can easily determine if station/network B is less expensive.
The bolded part is the potential problem. People could tie up the station as their car slows to crawl. The red line in the graph of https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/best- ... 15&slide=0 is about right. Max charging rate eventually goes from (approx) 55 kW to 37 kW to 25 kW to 17 kW to 11 kW and 9 kW when really near full.

Instead of people being incentivized on a trip to only get enough + some buffer to get to the next stop and maximize charging rate/keep costs down, they might charge all the way to full, tying up the station.

In Jeff's movie at https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/wat ... -to-55-kw/, you'll notice from the 60 to 90 minute mark, he only got about 10 kWh. He or the car or charger terminated it before it slowed to 9 kW or less (I've taken my Bolt to that point before). If his session ran longer, the last 30 minutes would've had a couple kWh less dispensed.

Yet in the 1st 30 minutes, he got about 26 kWh.

Network B, C, etc. might not have per kWh rates. EVgo in CA is still charging by the minute. There are other chargers that charge by time or a combo of time and energy.

Yes, some people may hang around at chargers longer than ideal (just as some people also do now with per minute pricing), but look at what you just described. The whole point is to simplify the process to make it easier for the typical car buyer, who doesn't want (and shouldn't have) to know all the geeky details that people like us spend time on. And per kWh charging not only incentivizes manufacturers to boost max charge rates, it also encourages them to increase average charge rates, which again simplifies things for the typical ICE car buyer. That's important to help move BEVs beyond the early adopter market.

So yeah, there will unquestionably be some people who sit at QCs longer than is ideal while we wait for faster charging batteries, but there are three answers to that. One is to grow the market so that QCs become profitable and lots more get built.

Another, as I mentioned in my previous post, is to institute tiered per kWh pricing based on the charger's max. charging rate. Thus, LEAF and Bolt owners will gravitate to Chargepoint 48kW QCs when they're available instead of EA 150 or 350 kW ones, and Kona/Niro owners will avoid the 350kW ones, if they're all priced accordingly.

Of course, if people know they'll be there for long enough most of them will choose the slower, lower-priced charger, so that should control the distribution of various rate QCs depending on the type of location.

A third approach is the one used at some Chargepoint QCs, where there's a per kWh plus a per minute fee, typically $0.25/kWh + $0.10/min. This largely eliminates the problem, but strikes me as more complex than the general public will want to deal with.

Eventually all BEVs will charge fast enough that it won't be an issue, but in the meantime there are reasonable steps that can be taken to minimize the problem.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cwerdna
Posts: 11136
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Electrify America Network

Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:18 am

GRA wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:12 pm
Yes, some people may hang around at chargers longer than ideal (just as some people also do now with per minute pricing), but look at what you just described. The whole point is to simplify the process to make it easier for the typical car buyer, who doesn't want (and shouldn't have) to know all the geeky details that people like us spend time on. And per kWh charging not only incentivizes manufacturers to boost max charge rates, it also encourages them to increase average charge rates, which again simplifies things for the typical ICE car buyer. That's important to help move BEVs beyond the early adopter market.
Vehicle engineering decisions have to made years in advance. DC FC pricing is a moving target and not consistent. Even within a provider (e.g. ChargePoint), there's no consistency since the owner sets the price, not ChargePoint. For Tesla, EA and EVgo, there are different prices and schemes depending on area, what local regulations allow, whatever the provider chooses to charge, etc.

Heck even 72 kW Tesla urban style Superchargers that are 2 miles from each other in the same city are different in price by 3 cents per kWh: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-4983575.
GRA wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:12 pm
So yeah, there will unquestionably be some people who sit at QCs longer than is ideal while we wait for faster charging batteries, but there are three answers to that. One is to grow the market so that QCs become profitable and lots more get built.

Another, as I mentioned in my previous post, is to institute tiered per kWh pricing based on the charger's max. charging rate. Thus, LEAF and Bolt owners will gravitate to Chargepoint 48kW QCs when they're available instead of EA 150 or 350 kW ones, and Kona/Niro owners will avoid the 350kW ones, if they're all priced accordingly.

Of course, if people know they'll be there for long enough most of them will choose the slower, lower-priced charger, so that should control the distribution of various rate QCs depending on the type of location.
What ChargePoint 48 kW chargers do you speak of? https://www.chargepoint.com/products/commercial/cpe250/ is higher than 48 kW. I've seen these configured as "50 kW" and "62.5 kW" units. I've used both configs including the unit in the video at https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/wat ... -to-55-kw/ (unit #41 at ChargePoint HQ).

There's no guarantee that there will be lower max power chargers installed nearby that have per kWh pricing or better pricing than EA.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15049
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Electrify America Network

Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:08 am

SageBrush wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:07 am
I looked a bit more into the new EA pricing scheme. The states I found that have two tier charging rates get great rates.

The west coast is single tier, but frankly I'm not sympathetic to the the whining if the local residential rate is on par with the EA rate. That is not EA, it is the high local price.

The people that were short-sighted and demanded per kWh charging rates are getting what they asked for: a homogenized demand cost structure, at least in those states with one tier. It does however seem fair to ask why some states have a two tier price structure and some one tier.
"local" rate; 25 cents a minute on a 100 KW station; cost per kwh "actual" 22.4 cents/kwh charged to 65% 20.8 cents/kwh charged to 50%. Actual rate varies due to starting SOC; the lower the SOC at the beginning of the charge, the lower the overall cost to charge beyond 45% SOC.

requires no subscription.

EA rates; 31 cents/kwh with $4 subscription, 43 cents/kwh "ala carte"

so yeah, its pennies anyway to slice it but my question is why you think pennies don't matter? Propose a "pennies" increase in gas tax, sales tax, property tax or ANY tax for that matter and see the response.

But the reality is people who were swapped to pay per kwh were screwed over big time based on the previous plan while everyone else got a huge cut in cost.

So now wondering how hybrids will feel when they find out L2's bill the exact same rate/kwh?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA
Posts: 12259
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:55 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:18 am
GRA wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:12 pm
Yes, some people may hang around at chargers longer than ideal (just as some people also do now with per minute pricing), but look at what you just described. The whole point is to simplify the process to make it easier for the typical car buyer, who doesn't want (and shouldn't have) to know all the geeky details that people like us spend time on. And per kWh charging not only incentivizes manufacturers to boost max charge rates, it also encourages them to increase average charge rates, which again simplifies things for the typical ICE car buyer. That's important to help move BEVs beyond the early adopter market.
Vehicle engineering decisions have to made years in advance.



Uh huh, and California is giving charging providers several years before they have to go to per kWh pricing, which also gives car manufacturers time to adapt.

cwerdna wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:18 am
DC FC pricing is a moving target and not consistent.

Currently true, and the whole point of requiring /kWh charging is to make it consistent.

cwerdna wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:18 am
Even within a provider (e.g. ChargePoint), there's no consistency since the owner sets the price, not ChargePoint.

Depends. Chargepoint apparently owns a lot of their own chargers now, and those are the ones that seem to have consistent pricing ($0.25 +$0.10) statewide.

cwerdna wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:18 am
For Tesla, EA and EVgo, there are different prices and schemes depending on area, what local regulations allow, whatever the provider chooses to charge, etc.

Uh huh. By contrast, wherever you go you'll buy gas by the gallon. Which is easier to compare?

cwerdna wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:18 am
Heck even 72 kW Tesla urban style Superchargers that are 2 miles from each other in the same city are different in price by 3 cents per kWh: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-4983575.

Sure. So what? A gas station 1.7 miles away from me is 25-30 cents per gallon less than the one a block from me, and I choose which one to use accordingly (I could also take into account gas and per mile insurance costs to get there and back, but as I wait to gas up until I'm going by there anyway, I don't need to). What I don't have to do is know the fill profile at each of them and set up an algebraic equation to determine which will cost me less for varying amounts of gas. You're making my argument for me.

cwerdna wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:18 am
GRA wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:12 pm
So yeah, there will unquestionably be some people who sit at QCs longer than is ideal while we wait for faster charging batteries, but there are three answers to that. One is to grow the market so that QCs become profitable and lots more get built.

Another, as I mentioned in my previous post, is to institute tiered per kWh pricing based on the charger's max. charging rate. Thus, LEAF and Bolt owners will gravitate to Chargepoint 48kW QCs when they're available instead of EA 150 or 350 kW ones, and Kona/Niro owners will avoid the 350kW ones, if they're all priced accordingly.

Of course, if people know they'll be there for long enough most of them will choose the slower, lower-priced charger, so that should control the distribution of various rate QCs depending on the type of location.
What ChargePoint 48 kW chargers do you speak of? https://www.chargepoint.com/products/commercial/cpe250/ is higher than 48 kW. I've seen these configured as "50 kW" and "62.5 kW" units. I've used both configs including the unit in the video at https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/wat ... -to-55-kw/ (unit #41 at ChargePoint HQ).

Don't remember the model # and it looked different from those, but it was presumably what Chargepoint is calling a "50 kW" charger. I was kind of surprised when I read the product plate to see that its max. output was 48kW. Have you read the product plates on the ones you've used?

Of course, rating charging rate by kW is misleading when what matters is amps and Ah, but we're probably stuck
with kW and kWh.

cwerdna wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:18 am
There's no guarantee that there will be lower max power chargers installed nearby that have per kWh pricing or better pricing than EA.

Of course there's no guarantee, just as there's also no guarantee (although it's likely in any decent-sized town) that I'll be able to find a gas station that's less expensive than the first one I see, but at least it's trivially easy for anyone to compare prices if there is more than one.

As it happens, the closest QC to me (5 blocks) is a Chademo-only Blink, which charges 59-69 cents/kWh for members/non-members. But there's an EA site that opened about 2 miles away last year, and an EVgo about 3 miles away that opened a couple of years before that in a different direction (Edit: I see another EVGo site about 2 miles away in yet another direction has opened this year); all are less expensive than the Blink, so if I were a LEAF owner I could decide between cost and convenience. Even the Blink L2s at the nearby site are 49-59 cents/kWh, so if all I care about is cost it's an easy decision. CCS car owners could choose between EA and EVgo or FTM between one EVgo and the other - the older one has 50kW chargers, the newer one 100kW. As EVgo's current pricing here is per minute, that's an easy call for cars that can charge over 50kW, and it would be just as easy if they were priced the same by kWh.

If, OTOH, they were priced at different kWh rates, customers would also take that into account when choosing which one to use, if convenience and time weren't significant factors.
Last edited by GRA on Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12259
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:02 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:08 am


<Snip>
But the reality is people who were swapped to pay per kwh were screwed over big time based on the previous plan while everyone else got a huge cut in cost.

So now wondering how hybrids will feel when they find out L2's bill the exact same rate/kwh?

As the main cost driver for QCs is demand charges, why would L2s be priced the same? If they are, rational cost-conscious PHEV owners, which is what I assume you mean by 'hybrids', will simply buy gas or go elsewhere.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15049
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Electrify America Network

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:29 pm

GRA wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:02 pm
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:08 am


<Snip>
But the reality is people who were swapped to pay per kwh were screwed over big time based on the previous plan while everyone else got a huge cut in cost.

So now wondering how hybrids will feel when they find out L2's bill the exact same rate/kwh?

As the main cost driver for QCs is demand charges, why would L2s be priced the same? If they are, rational cost-conscious PHEV owners, which is what I assume you mean by 'hybrids', will simply buy gas or go elsewhere.
That answer is above my pay grade but obviously well thought out. Dropping the per minute price elsewhere was quite effective in maximizing the "effect"
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA
Posts: 12259
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:39 pm

The local Blink L2s were originally per minute, which screwed people with 3.3 kW OBCs compared to those who had 6.6kW OBCs. Lots of complaints, so Blink changed to per kWh pricing. The new per kWh rates worked out to be more expensive for all, but now everyone was getting screwed equally ;)

I have little doubt that EA will have to lower the L2 rates, or just abandon L2 charging at QC sites. Ah, competition.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15049
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Electrify America Network

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:15 pm

GRA wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:39 pm
The local Blink L2s were originally per minute, which screwed people with 3.3 kW OBCs compared to those who had 6.6kW OBCs. Lots of complaints, so Blink changed to per kWh pricing. The new per kWh rates worked out to be more expensive for all, but now everyone was getting screwed equally ;)

I have little doubt that EA will have to lower the L2 rates, or just abandon L2 charging at QC sites. Ah, competition.
Guess its easy to ignore the direction the per minutes rates went from your view in California.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA
Posts: 12259
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:08 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:15 pm
GRA wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:39 pm
The local Blink L2s were originally per minute, which screwed people with 3.3 kW OBCs compared to those who had 6.6kW OBCs. Lots of complaints, so Blink changed to per kWh pricing. The new per kWh rates worked out to be more expensive for all, but now everyone was getting screwed equally ;)

I have little doubt that EA will have to lower the L2 rates, or just abandon L2 charging at QC sites. Ah, competition.
Guess its easy to ignore the direction the per minutes rates went from your view in California.

Ignore it? Hardly. It made it clear that charging at this site was more expensive than buying gas for almost everyone. As a consequence, I've never seen more than 4 of the 10 L2s in use despite the excellent location, in a parking garage downtown across the street from City Hall, and bordering the main retail street. I figure the people who do use them are either so dedicated to zero tailpipe emissions that they're willing to pay more, they're the desperate who can't make it elsewhere, or they're mathematically challenged.

On another point, I just rode my bike the 4 miles over and back to the new EVgo site that opened this year, to check out the "100 kW" chargers listed on Plugshare. Nope. AFAIR these are the same BTC Power dual-std. chargers as are at the other EVgo site in town. DC output is 200-550V, max. 125A.

Excellent location though, at a supermarket/mini-mall with easy access to/from the freeway. Grocery stores are the most requested urban QC sites, especially by people who can't charge at home/work.

These strike me as a bit slow for people who only go shopping once a week. As a single guy living in walking distance of a supermarket I shop several times a week, but I'm typically in and out in 10 or at most 15 minutes.

ISTM that people doing the once a week bit take maybe 30 to a max of 45 minutes, and the chargers should be rated accordingly. I don't know if he'd been shopping, but there was a guy sitting in and charging his Bolt there when I rode up, and he'd taken 36.6 kW (IIRC he was at 69% SoC) when the charge timed out after 45 minutes and he initiated another charge. In this case, the Bolt's charging speed controlled how much he could get in that time, but BEVs for mainstream consumers will likely need to do better.

I asked him what the max rate he'd seen was, and mentioned some had claimed 55 kW. He said he'd seen that too, which shouldn't be possible from a 125A charger unless the Bolt's pack is well above 400V when full. Can anyone confirm the Bolt's nominal pack voltage?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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