SageBrush
Posts: 5155
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:24 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:29 pm
I don't know the reason but I've heard the claims for the reason why Bolt's DC FC max rate is currently so slow is electrodes are too thick
The Bolt uses LG cells, which are also used in other EVs that do not have such slow DC fast charging. You might also look up the LG energy density.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 10989
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:05 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:24 pm
cwerdna wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:29 pm
I don't know the reason but I've heard the claims for the reason why Bolt's DC FC max rate is currently so slow is electrodes are too thick
The Bolt uses LG cells, which are also used in other EVs that do not have such slow DC fast charging. You might also look up the LG energy density.
Are they the same cells? I've never tracked them. Which other EVs w/LG Chem cells have faster DC fast charging? When did they 1st ship? I suspect they shipped well after engineering work was complete on the Bolt.

I stumbled across https://www.osti.gov/pages/servlets/purl/1561559 (you may need to click on accepted manuscripts) and page 26 already lists 4 variants from LG Chem.

At first glance, https://www.lgchem.com/product/PD00000148 is light on details. https://www.lgchem.com/product/PD00000066 lists 6 grades of cathodes, 5 of which list automotive applications...

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 5155
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:43 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:05 pm
Which other EVs w/LG Chem cells have faster DC fast charging?
Audi, for one
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 10989
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:58 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:43 pm
cwerdna wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:05 pm
Which other EVs w/LG Chem cells have faster DC fast charging?
Audi, for one
Ok. e-tron BEV looks like it didn't ship until March 2019. The A3 e-tron (now dead) was a PHEV that couldn't be DC FCed.

Bolt 1st shipped in Dec 2016: https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en ... oltev.html, so I'd guess major engineering work had to be completed at least a year before that.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 5155
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:42 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:58 pm
SageBrush wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:43 pm
cwerdna wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:05 pm
Which other EVs w/LG Chem cells have faster DC fast charging?
Audi, for one
Ok. e-tron BEV looks like it didn't ship until March 2019. The A3 e-tron (now dead) was a PHEV that couldn't be DC FCed.

Bolt 1st shipped in Dec 2016: https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en ... oltev.html, so I'd guess major engineering work had to be completed at least a year before that.
LG says on
https://www.lgchem.com/product/PD00000148
that in 2016 their cells supported 200 - 500 km range, charged to 80% SoC in 40 minutes. That does not match the speculation you mentioned earlier since it works out to an average 1.2 C.

In any case, just compare specific energy densities of the LG cell to competitors.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 10989
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:35 pm

^^^
I can't speak to what those dates mean. Does it mean those batteries were in use in vehicles already at the time? They were available for sampling only? Ready for mass production? In mass production?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... production from Feb 2016 says
The cooperation was formally announced more than four years ago, in August 2011, by GM's then-CEO Dan Akerson and Juno Cho, president and chief operating officer of LG Corp.
Funny enough now that you mention the time, it took Jeff at https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/wat ... -to-55-kw/ 60 minutes to get from 12% to 80%,

https://www.torquenews.com/7893/3-takea ... ery-expert item #3 gives a bit of color...
On the reasons for the Bolt EV's fast-charging limitations, however, Piper did provide a little more insider knowledge, stating:
"When we first introduced the Bolt EV back in 2016, our goal was to build the first affordable, long-range electric vehicle. At the time, we optimized the system components around the battery, e.g. cables, contactors, and so on.

"Higher current requires bigger, more expensive cables, etc. and ultimately you reach a point of diminishing returns in terms of saving 10-15 minutes during the occasional DC Fast Charging session versus needing to pay for a more expensive battery system."

In essence, he's saying that GM batteries were more expensive at the time and GM had to keep costs down.

This doesn't preclude the idea that the engineers could optimize the battery management to get closer to a 1C rate on the 2020 model, which would put the maximum rate closer to 65 kW, but the company clearly doesn't see improved fast charging as a primary concern at this point in time. Note the "occasional" and "diminishing returns" terminology when discussing time savings, for example.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 5155
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:57 pm

^^ Piper is saying that GM pinched pennies by spec-ing to a low(er) max current.

That, I believe. The LG angle is just a red herring
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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