kmp647
Posts: 1136
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:00 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Nov 2011
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:40 am

its not to swift to hand a car off to a journalist and expect them to commute 54mi rt each day off 110v charging speed. add winter and its just stupid

Agood test of the car for a week should involve some planning by Nissan and the journalist to have 240v evse at home , or at work.

thats a real world test

not a : new car, 110v cable and once every 10 year snow storm in texas!
2012 SL Leaf
order 07/28/2011
took delivery 11/11/11
47,000 miles 10 bars 211 gids
Turned back into Nissan 12/31/14 @ 50,000 miles
BMW i3 rex 24 month lease
2017 BMW X540e phev
Tesla model 3 reservation

User avatar
Jimmydreams
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:44 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0175
Location: Oceanside, Ca.
Contact: Website

Re:

Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:42 am

SanDust wrote:You can call the guy an idiot all you like but the only real mistake he made was in believing the car's range estimates.
That, and he probably drove the car EXACTLY like he drives his ICE. That's the one point Nissan needs to work on in their advertising for the car; you don't have to change EVERYHTHING about how your drive, but you do need to change a few things... otherwise, a perfectly acceptable EV won't be acceptable.
JimmyD
http://www.jjhamilton.com/solar
Blue SL Leaf delivered 1/7/2011
EVP participant. EVSE: Blink
6.75kW PV solar

User avatar
DaveEV
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6239
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:16 am

Jimmydreams wrote:That, and he probably drove the car EXACTLY like he drives his ICE.
But isn't that the point of the Leaf as the first mass market EV? The general population does not want to have to worry about range - but it's clear that even among educated early adopters 100 mi range provides anxiety.

Makes me respect Toyota's position of not wanting to produce an EV until they can provide 100 mi range in nearly all conditions (that's what they are aiming for with the RAV4-EV prototype they are working with Tesla on - supposedly the battery will be about 40-50% larger than the Leaf battery which should be good for 100 mi EPA range rather than the 73 mi EPA range of the Leaf).

It does seem like another 20-30 mi of range in the Leaf would provide a lot of range anxiety relief among Leaf early adopters... I mean - can you honestly say that you wouldn't mind being able to comfortably go back to driving ~75 mph on your commute without worry instead of 65 mph?

User avatar
Jimmydreams
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:44 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0175
Location: Oceanside, Ca.
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:32 am

drees wrote:
Jimmydreams wrote:That, and he probably drove the car EXACTLY like he drives his ICE.
But isn't that the point of the Leaf as the first mass market EV? The general population does not want to have to worry about range - but it's clear that even among educated early adopters 100 mi range provides anxiety.

Makes me respect Toyota's position of not wanting to produce an EV until they can provide 100 mi range in nearly all conditions (that's what they are aiming for with the RAV4-EV prototype they are working with Tesla on - supposedly the battery will be about 40-50% larger than the Leaf battery which should be good for 100 mi EPA range rather than the 73 mi EPA range of the Leaf).

It does seem like another 20-30 mi of range in the Leaf would provide a lot of range anxiety relief among Leaf early adopters... I mean - can you honestly say that you wouldn't mind being able to comfortably go back to driving ~75 mph on your commute without worry instead of 65 mph?
It's clear the author almost went out of his way to run low on juice....admittedly making a lunch run when he knew he was running low. If you write a check when you know the funds aren't there to cover it, why should anyone be surprised when it bounces?

I think we're also getting a little lost on the term "range anxiety" (RA). To me, RA means worrying about having the juice to get where I need to go in a reasonable fashion. For that definition, I don't have RA anymore. If your version of RA means being able to drive 75mph to and from work and still make it home...well, now we're back to talking checks and money again, aren't we? The Leaf can make the journey just fine, but not when driven to extremes, or when driven with NO thought to conditions or behavior. Are you saying that if you're 50 miles from the nearest gas station and your car is on E that you should expect to drive it at 90mph for that last 50 miles with the A/C blasting?

I think therein lies the rub. Most people want to continue the lead-foot mentality regardless of the situation. I think that's stupid. High gas prices can FORCE people to change, or a car like the Leaf can OFFER them the chance to change. No one is forcing a Leaf on anyone, but the buyers need to be educated on what they're getting. If Toyota is waiting to market something that is as close to an ICE engine as possible, they may find the market (and possibly society) has passed them by. I think that when the general public sees people getting the equivalent of 100mpg on their Leaf, or paying the equivalent of $1.25/gal gas, the public WILL notice. And when people realize the small sacrifices they may need to make to get those benefits, I think the vast majority will be happy to change. As gas, food, and the price of everything else goes up, I think you'll be surprised at the lengths people will willingly go to to save money.

A 35 mile one-way commute at 65mph takes 32 minutes. The same drive at 75mph takes 28 minutes. Is 4 minutes really such an imposition on someone to offer them 100mpg? I think not.
JimmyD
http://www.jjhamilton.com/solar
Blue SL Leaf delivered 1/7/2011
EVP participant. EVSE: Blink
6.75kW PV solar

DarkStar
Posts: 2066
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:06 am
Delivery Date: 25 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 568
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:53 am

Jimmydreams wrote:A 35 mile one-way commute at 65mph takes 32 minutes. The same drive at 75mph takes 28 minutes. Is 4 minutes really such an imposition on someone to offer them 100mpg? I think not.
+1 :!:
Mikiko (2011 Nissan LEAF ETEC) Status:
Reserved: 04/20/10 | Ordered: 10/01/10 | EV Project Blink Installed: 03/22/11 | Delivered: 03/25/11 | VIN: 568

Oregon Electric Vehicle Association | Electric Auto Association

stanley
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:38 am

Well said!!!

User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11480
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:01 am

drees wrote:But isn't that the point of the Leaf as the first mass market EV?
I take that as meaning reasonably priced ($25K), highway capable and having atleast 50 miles range.

BTW, SoCal situation isn't typical at all. The distances are large & the speeds are high. Infact one of the areas I think that will face serious repurcussions because of peak oil.
drees wrote:Makes me respect Toyota's position of not wanting to produce an EV until they can provide 100 mi range in nearly all conditions (that's what they are aiming for with the RAV4-EV prototype they are working with Tesla on - supposedly the battery will be about 40-50% larger than the Leaf battery which should be good for 100 mi EPA range rather than the 73 mi EPA range of the Leaf).
Toyota is just playing the CARB game. They have already said they will offer RAV4-EV in limited quantities (probably read high price).

Range is a function of price. If you want to be able to produce in large enough numbers and sell them at a $25K price without tax cedits in 3 years, you have to start with a smaller battery. Toyota is just waiting for someone else to get the economies of scale to benefit from. Hardly a respectable position.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

User avatar
DaveEV
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6239
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:06 pm

Jimmydreams wrote:A 35 mile one-way commute at 65mph takes 32 minutes. The same drive at 75mph takes 28 minutes. Is 4 minutes really such an imposition on someone to offer them 100mpg? I think not.
I agree completely Jimmy - but getting people to change their habits (voluntarily or not) is not easy. Making people change will cause them to complain. And thus we end up with articles like this one. A lot of range anxiety will go away once DC quick charge stations start popping up. Worried about running low? Topping up for 5 minutes should give you 15 mi breathing room - problem solved!

BTW - have a look at how many people (many here with LEAFs) feel that driving 65 mph on the highway is not safe! Driving on many of the same freeways I completely disagree - I think it's all in their head... Someone could probably write a thesis about pack/herd mentality and how it relates to driving (probably already done!).

sproqitman
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:04 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0196
Location: Bellevue, WA

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:24 am

Here's another data/talking point with respect to cold weather. Someone over on Facebook asked about the impact of the heater on the battery. I replied that using the heater (when the outside temperature is in the mid-30s) consumes about 10% of the battery capacity per hour. If I take that further, assuming a 100-mile range, it's the same as saying I'm losing 10 miles of range for every hour I run the heater. An ICE vehicle at idle uses 0.25 to 0.5 gallons of gasoline per hour, which is also roughly equivalent to 10 miles of range.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14204
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:24 pm

On the Centralia trip the other day acc usage was 2.5 kwh. That is probably 10 miles of range
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Return to “Range / Efficiency / Carwings”