Reduction Gear Oil Change - Benefits for Range

[Nubo]

I don't even know how many phases the Leaf motor uses or how it is wired ...

It's 3-phase to the stator, with a permanent magnet core.

 

[bobkart]

I only ever see three phases used in PMAC (or induction) motors.

Do you know how many poles the Leaf motor uses?

 

[goldbrick]

Start here; https://training.ti.com/field-oriented-control-permanent-magnet-motors

and then here; https://www.ti.com/lit/an/sprabz0a/sprabz0a.pdf?ts=1628009501220&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F

Thanks! Great stuff.

I had an old Ti book about motor control using the 2xLP back in the day and it looks like Ti has kept up their great application engineering although I don't know how they've done in the last few years.

A lot of this stuff is new to me as my experience was with BLDC motors. When I started the drive was just a simple square wave drive using a 3 leg H-bridge but then was updated to sine wave drive generated by the PWM circuitry in a motor controller chip. The motors we used were 3-phase and either 8 pole/12 slot or 12 pole/9 slot IIRC. Synchronization was done by zero-crossing detection on the phase whose BEMF was crossing zero. Now that I know what to search for there are tons of videos and papers on the web about all this stuff. I don't work with motors anymore but I always found them fascinating. The Ti video mentions using their Piccolo processor to do the transforms, etc but I'd assume that by now that functionality is in hardware. Either way it is interesting stuff. Thanks again for the links.

 

[lorenfb]

Start here; https://training.ti.com/field-oriented-control-permanent-magnet-motors

and then here; https://www.ti.com/lit/an/sprabz0a/sprabz0a.pdf?ts=1628009501220&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F

Thanks! Great stuff.

I had an old Ti book about motor control using the 2xLP back in the day and it looks like Ti has kept up their great application engineering although I don't know how they've done in the last few years.

A lot of this stuff is new to me as my experience was with BLDC motors. When I started the drive was just a simple square wave drive using a 3 leg H-bridge but then was updated to sine wave drive generated by the PWM circuitry in a motor controller chip. The motors we used were 3-phase and either 8 pole/12 slot or 12 pole/9 slot IIRC. Synchronization was done by zero-crossing detection on the phase whose BEMF was crossing zero. Now that I know what to search for there are tons of videos and papers on the web about all this stuff. I don't work with motors anymore but I always found them fascinating. The Ti video mentions using their Piccolo processor to do the transforms, etc but I'd assume that by now that functionality is in hardware. Either way it is interesting stuff. Thanks again for the links.

TI has kept up well with technology over the last 40 years, moving from producing calculator chips to DSP (digital signal processing) chips.
Without FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) & DSP, MRI would still be a dream. TI bought National Semiconductor, which produced one of the
first 16 bit processors, and enhanced TI's processor capabilities.

https://www.ti.com/lit/an/spra884a/spra884a.pdf?ts=1628096268877&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F

 

[Nubo]

I only ever see three phases used in PMAC (or induction) motors.

Do you know how many poles the Leaf motor uses?

8 poles, 48 slots. At least for the 2012.

 

[Stanton]

How did this thread get so far off on a tangent?
I rely on this thread for data/recommendations on Reduction Gear Oil types.

 

[voltamps]

I got my Motorcraft Mercon ULV spectrographic oil analysis back, and the key phosphorus anti-wear additive is not as high as Valvoline ULV.

 

[knightmb]

I got my Motorcraft Mercon ULV spectrographic oil analysis back, and the key phosphorus anti-wear additive is not as high as Valvoline ULV.

Is that... good :?: :lol:

 

[voltamps]

Is that... good :?: :lol:

Valvoline ULV is loaded up with more phosphorus, should be better for wear, unless Motorcraft puts something else in their ULV thin oil, like organic esters that don't show up on an oil analysis. (?).. I guess it's possible, don't know how probable they could have some secret ingredient, but phosphorus has long been the go-to chemical to lower wear in gears for many years. In fact, to be rated "GL-5" you have to have a minimum concentration. GL-4 needs less, which is basically our ATF oil used here.

If you really want to go crazy with phosphorus anti-wear, way-high amounts (meant for hypoid gears), you can pay Toyota $50 per liter for their low-viscosity (matches Dexron VI & Matic S visc) gear oil called "Genuine Toyota Transfer Case Gear Oil LF 75W", which would work because it's made for gears & bearings, and it's visc matches Matic S. It's got almost 4 times the concentration of phosphorus as Valvoline MaxLife or Valvoline ULV. Toyota started putting that in 4WD transfer cases to get better CAFE & truck EPA MPG ratings numbers a few years back.

@knightmb, you live near Smyrna, & I now see they could be producing more Leafs. Factory humming again? Looks like it, chip shortage be danged. .... My local dealerships were completely out, but now their websites say some '22 models are on a train headed their way. (If the train stops a few miles to the southeast first, it's a chattanooga choo-choo. Don't forget to tip the waitresses.)

 

[SageBrush]

@knightmb, you live near Smyrna, & I now see they could be producing more Leafs. Factory humming again? Looks like it, chip shortage be danged. .... My local dealerships were completely out, but now their websites say some '22 models are on a train headed their way.

One of the advantages of keeping things the same since 2011

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Yep, 22s can be had I'm Chicago as well. Debating if it would be worth trying to trade in one of the 19s for a 22 given the higher price in the used car market. The 21/22 model year has improved safety equipment for the S+.

Is there any analysis out there as to whether there is any difference in battery degradation between 18, 19, 20, and 21s? 40 or 62.

 

[knightmb]

@knightmb, you live near Smyrna, & I now see they could be producing more Leafs. Factory humming again? Looks like it, chip shortage be danged. .... My local dealerships were completely out, but now their websites say some '22 models are on a train headed their way. (If the train stops a few miles to the southeast first, it's a chattanooga choo-choo. Don't forget to tip the waitresses.)

Actually, just heard on the news yesterday, it's going to shutdown for 2 weeks due to, you guessed it, "chip shortage".

 

[Astral]

I admit, I am new here, the thread is interesting but got no time to read all the pages. Can somebody summarize for me what is the change exactly, some specific oil need to be used? I have a 2018 ZE1 Leaf with 43k kilometers on the clock. Should I be doing this?

 

[Stanton]

I admit, I am new here, the thread is interesting but got no time to read all the pages. Can somebody summarize for me what is the change exactly, some specific oil need to be used? I have a 2018 ZE1 Leaf with 43k kilometers on the clock. Should I be doing this?

You can't read the first page (even first post) of this thread? This may be snarky, but you can invest more time than just 3 posts if it's important to you.
I have done this (using Valvoline ULV) and noticed an efficiency bump (in warm weather) on my 2011 Leaf.

 

[Astral]

I have read the first page of course. I am posting at the end of 26 pages of peoples replies to see if this is a good idea in the end or not with somebody who is familiar with the topic. Anyway, thanks for your reply.

 

[Nubo]

I have read the first page of course. I am posting at the end of 26 pages of peoples replies to see if this is a good idea in the end or not with somebody who is familiar with the topic. Anyway, thanks for your reply.

If you start at page 22 you should see most of the conclusions.

 

[Astral]

Thanks I will do that

 

[dsevier]

This is all great food for thought. Knightmb, you mentioned that an improvement in efficiency should be expected even if just changing out old factory MaticS fluid for new MaticS. So the implication I take is that the old oil is worn, has wear particles suspended in it (enough to raise viscosity?) and/or the lubricant has just plain broken down. Given that new fluid works better than old, has anyone gone through to show any relative improvement of new MaticS vs other new oils (Valvoline oils, Redline D6 or Amsoil) I know, a lot of work!

Lastly, is the MaticS a partial synth product with greater change in viscosity over temperature? I am new to Leafs and at 66k, my 'new' old car needs new fluid!

 

[knightmb]

This is all great food for thought. Knightmb, you mentioned that an improvement in efficiency should be expected even if just changing out old factory MaticS fluid for new MaticS. So the implication I take is that the old oil is worn, has wear particles suspended in it (enough to raise viscosity?) and/or the lubricant has just plain broken down. Given that new fluid works better than old, has anyone gone through to show any relative improvement of new MaticS vs other new oils (Valvoline oils, Redline D6 or Amsoil) I know, a lot of work!

Yes, the fluid change (even with the exact same fluid) helps but high temperatures outside or very aggressive driving can still negate the energy savings. Mainly, the first change has benefits (to clear out all the break-in particles) and provided you have no other issues, should be good for a long time. Using a fluid with a lower viscosity has benefits for long trips but is hard to detect in shorter trips if there is not enough time to heat up the fluid past the point where the cooling system has to kick in. The benefits are only in proportion to battery size, so the smaller the battery size, the less benefits you can measure. What might be a 20 mile bonus on a 62 kWh Leaf might only be a 2 mile bonus on an older 24 kWh Leaf due to trip time. As far as "hurting" the Leaf, I've been keeping a close watch on mine, my wife's and several others that I have swapped out the lower viscosity fluid for and so far no issues related to it have come up. :?

Lastly, is the MaticS a partial synth product with greater change in viscosity over temperature? I am new to Leafs and at 66k, my 'new' old car needs new fluid!

A great chart was posted about that here: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=603038#p603038