ishiyakazuo
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Re: When will Nissan announce details of the next-gen Leaf

Mon May 11, 2015 11:47 am

Moof wrote:Good question. I have wondered if perhaps the pack is actually higher capacity than the 24 kWh claimed to allow a degradation buffer by hiding the first 10-20% of actual degradation via software.
I've had the same thought. Personally, I'm kind of OK with that. They'd probably only be charged up to 80% even on the new LEAFs without the 80% option, so that could help with longevity too.
2012 LEAF SL in Cayenne Red
40 mile R/T commute in Chicagoland
Leaf Spy Lite (June 2015, 22513 miles): AHr = 56.86, SOH = 86%, 393.13V, Hx = 73.55%, 924 L1/L2s, min/avg/max = 4.080 4.097 4.109 (29mV)

tkdbrusco
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Re: When will Nissan announce details of the next-gen Leaf

Mon May 11, 2015 1:11 pm

ishiyakazuo wrote:
Moof wrote:Good question. I have wondered if perhaps the pack is actually higher capacity than the 24 kWh claimed to allow a degradation buffer by hiding the first 10-20% of actual degradation via software.
I've had the same thought. Personally, I'm kind of OK with that. They'd probably only be charged up to 80% even on the new LEAFs without the 80% option, so that could help with longevity too.
This could be a possibility but if so, I doubt it would be a difference as great as 10-20%. Maybe 5-10% at most. We know there's something because the max Gids is 292 on the 2015 cars, which is slightly more than prior MY cars. We also know that 100% charging is not impacting the cars much either. Maybe they are just trying to see how the packs hold up and if they wind up being much less effected by degradation, they'll just free up capacity with a software update!
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ishiyakazuo
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:59 pm
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Location: Chicagoland, USA

Re: When will Nissan announce details of the next-gen Leaf

Mon May 11, 2015 1:29 pm

tkdbrusco wrote:This could be a possibility but if so, I doubt it would be a difference as great as 10-20%. Maybe 5-10% at most. We know there's something because the max Gids is 292 on the 2015 cars, which is slightly more than prior MY cars. We also know that 100% charging is not impacting the cars much either. Maybe they are just trying to see how the packs hold up and if they wind up being much less effected by degradation, they'll just free up capacity with a software update!
Fact is, we don't know how much capacity they'd be able to add in the same size as 2011 packs in 2015. It could be sizable. Once we start seeing 2015s with more significant degradation (maybe in a year or two?), we might be able to interpolate based on curve fitting techniques what the actual capacity of the pack is. Nissan probably doesn't want people to know if the 2015s have more capacity, because it could lead to people rushing to get a battery replacement (i.e. more headaches).
"100% charging" might not be 100% charging anymore, if this theory turns out to be true. That could be one reason why the degradation is lower.
2012 LEAF SL in Cayenne Red
40 mile R/T commute in Chicagoland
Leaf Spy Lite (June 2015, 22513 miles): AHr = 56.86, SOH = 86%, 393.13V, Hx = 73.55%, 924 L1/L2s, min/avg/max = 4.080 4.097 4.109 (29mV)

tkdbrusco
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Re: When will Nissan announce details of the next-gen Leaf

Mon May 11, 2015 2:07 pm

I just can't help but think that if they were to add unused KwH to the packs, why not advertise increased range and free up the packs? I would think that saying the car has 100mi of EPA range would be much better than buffering degradation.
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
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ishiyakazuo
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Re: When will Nissan announce details of the next-gen Leaf

Mon May 11, 2015 2:10 pm

tkdbrusco wrote:I just can't help but think that if they were to add unused KwH to the packs, why not advertise increased range and free up the packs? I would think that saying the car has 100mi of EPA range would be much better than buffering degradation.
In one sense, you're right. The enhanced EPA range would be a good selling point. However, they're also swapping them into '11-'14 MY cars, and maybe they thought the rush on batteries would be too much to handle.
2012 LEAF SL in Cayenne Red
40 mile R/T commute in Chicagoland
Leaf Spy Lite (June 2015, 22513 miles): AHr = 56.86, SOH = 86%, 393.13V, Hx = 73.55%, 924 L1/L2s, min/avg/max = 4.080 4.097 4.109 (29mV)

tkdbrusco
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Re: When will Nissan announce details of the next-gen Leaf

Mon May 11, 2015 2:15 pm

Here's my most recent data from my 2015, with 11,056 mi.

286 Gids
22.17 kwh
97.23% SOC
91.68% SOH
93.76 HX
60.74 Ahr
71.6 F

The one thing that strikes me is that even though 286 Gids is very high, and similar to what a new 2011-2014 was off the lot, my SOH is only at 91.68%, My starting gids at new was 292, and my SOH was never higher than 98%. A drop from 292 to 286 only indicates a 2.1% drop, but my SOH indicates much more? Maybe there is more kwh in there and I actually do have nearly 8% degradation?

There's a few 2015 people who are still reporting 100%+ SOH with over 10K miles on their cars? Maybe these people have Gen2 cells in the cars and are being used as testers? or they are just from colder climates.
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
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ishiyakazuo
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:59 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Mar 2015
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Re: When will Nissan announce details of the next-gen Leaf

Mon May 11, 2015 2:21 pm

Well, 286/91.68% SOH implies that the full pack has at least 312 GIDs at 100% SOH... that would be in line with a 27kWh pack, as the original 24kWh pack had ~282 GIDs.
2012 LEAF SL in Cayenne Red
40 mile R/T commute in Chicagoland
Leaf Spy Lite (June 2015, 22513 miles): AHr = 56.86, SOH = 86%, 393.13V, Hx = 73.55%, 924 L1/L2s, min/avg/max = 4.080 4.097 4.109 (29mV)

dhanson865
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Re: When will Nissan announce details of the next-gen Leaf

Mon May 11, 2015 2:55 pm

tkdbrusco wrote:I just can't help but think that if they were to add unused KwH to the packs, why not advertise increased range and free up the packs? I would think that saying the car has 100mi of EPA range would be much better than buffering degradation.
because the battery has a new cell chemistry and until one survives 5 years/60,000 miles of AZ,NM,TX,FL style heat they wouldn't want to expose themselves to replacing all those packs.

Once they get a 5 year/60,000 miler in AZ they could release an update but they aren't Tesla so they probably won't. They'd just quietly adjust their internal data and use it for the next years production/deliveries.
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ishiyakazuo
Posts: 333
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Re: When will Nissan announce details of the next-gen Leaf

Mon May 11, 2015 3:06 pm

The question then becomes, when does the first bar drop off with the batteries if it's 27kWh? If it was 81% on a 24kWh battery, is it even more ridiculous on the '15s? Like, 74% SOH before it drops a bar on the display? That could indeed take some time.
2012 LEAF SL in Cayenne Red
40 mile R/T commute in Chicagoland
Leaf Spy Lite (June 2015, 22513 miles): AHr = 56.86, SOH = 86%, 393.13V, Hx = 73.55%, 924 L1/L2s, min/avg/max = 4.080 4.097 4.109 (29mV)

tkdbrusco
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Re: When will Nissan announce details of the next-gen Leaf

Mon May 11, 2015 3:34 pm

When I first got the car, I drove it until the first GOM bar dropped. That was at 251 GIDS, but I know that this doesn't mean the same thing as a capacity bar. My guess would be (assuming we are correct about the extra capacity) they would stick with the same nearly 15% drop before you lose the first bar. This would mean that most cars would be turned in as lease returns after 3 years with still 12 bars remaining (easier to sell).

Here's something for you guys to chew on... Batteries weigh quite a bit, so lets compare the car's gross weight.

2011SV - 3366
2012SV - 3385
2013SV - 3291
2014SV - 3291
2015SV - 3291

No change in the SV model over 3 years? Why? If there's extra cells in there, or the pack is significantly different, you'd think the weight would change somewhat? Even if they cut weight elsewhere, I doubt they'd be at the same exact weigh in 2015.
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

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