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EVDRIVER
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:36 pm

garygid wrote:Actually, there is no real need for "communication" with the car. The driver could tell the car how much current to draw.

Also, the "extension cord" from car to AC source does not need to be "HOT" when plugged into the car. Plug into the car first, then plug into the hot AC power "Socket", just like one does with boats and RVs.

The whole "danger" thing is overblown, mostly made up. No real statistics to back it up.

Apparently toasters, refrigerators, lamps, and carrying ladders are each bigger hazards to life.

First off you expect people to think, that does not happen many times. If the car charger is higher capacity then the circuit then there is an issue, consumers would never get this. Second, people are stupid and careless. Also all those twist connectors are not meant for high duty cycles and have other issues when used frequently in an EV but they are good for single user use and adaptors.

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evnow
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:33 pm

I think the single best argument against 220V being "unsafe" is EU. They have been using 220V without any problems for a hundred years.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
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garygid
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:39 pm

Construction extension cords are usually plugged and unplugged at least once a day.

RVs, Boats, and most of the rest of the world use 200-240v regularly. There is no data that I can find that shows significant electrical deaths due to non-comercial use of 240v in the USA. One big killer is crane operators swinging their crane booms into high-voltage lines.

The "EVSE" connection has two ends, car and "wall". Using a specific connector on the car end helps standardize. The other end could be made a "standard" as well (to help with plugging into commercial/public charging locations). A few adapters would enable one to utilize other commonly-found sockets (RV park, etc.).

They said people were too stupid to choose leaded or unleaded gas, or vote, or understand the propositions that they are voting on, or use voting machines, or ... not smoke while fueling up, but people learned and adapted.

Two states still require gas station attendants, Oregon and New Jersey. I do not know why. In other states grandma and "Slim" learned how to do it without blowing up the station.

If you take away the really deadly things, CARs themselves would be one of the very first to go!
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AndyH
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:48 pm

garygid wrote:Actually, there is no real need for "communication" with the car. The driver could tell the car how much current to draw.

Also, the "extension cord" from car to AC source does not need to be "HOT" when plugged into the car. Plug into the car first, then plug into the hot AC power "Socket", just like one does with boats and RVs.

The whole "danger" thing is overblown, mostly made up. No real statistics to back it up.

Apparently toasters, refrigerators, lamps, and carrying ladders are each bigger hazards to life.
Did you look at the comment on the West Marine page you referenced? "Shore power adapters, which allow you to plug in a variety of cords to a marine power center, must be used carefully or they could inadvertently create a shock or electrocution hazard."

These things don't have breakers sized to protect the cables, and don't have GFCIs. They CAN be safely used because the boats have safety gear installed. Should Nissan install EVSE functions under the hood so we only need to use an extension cord?

I lived in England and Germany for a total 7 years. Yes - 220V 13A outlets are easy to use, with and without adapters or transformers. But we're not talking 13A supplies with a L2 EVSE, are we? Euro plugs and sockets are rated for many disconnect/connect cycles - how many times can we safely connect a US dryer plug?

Either we want to promote electric cars or we don't. If we don't care, then let's keep harping about shore power plugs and roll-around EVSE - safety and class-action lawsuits be damned.

If we want to get EVs into the hands of nearly everyone, then we need to make it safe for the 14 year old kids and the 22 year old mother of two juggling the kids and groceries and trying to remember where her keys are. I could keep a couple of days work in my head before my son arrived - now at 47 with a 7 year old I have been known to leave Legos on the roof of the car... Things happen. We don't want it to happen with an EV.

I really hope that future EVers won't be limited to 50+ year old empty-nesters with a medical clearance confirming no Alzheimer's or adult-onset ADD! ;)

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garygid
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:15 pm

Apparently the standards people feel that there is nothing, other than hard-wiring THEIR adapter, that anybody could do to learn to use extenion cords "safely" ... even though there appears to be no real evidence of danger.

Requiring this EXPENSIVE infrastructure is just making a lot of $$$ for a few, and SLOWING DOWN the growth of EV usage.

As it is now, I cannot drive 60 miles across town to visit grandma, recharge while I am there for a few hours, and drive back home. All because I would have to install an expensive EVSE there, instead of simply using a plug-in EVSE a few times a month?

Of course the EV itself will need to support at least 4-hour charging, but that will come soon enough, partly because the "low-rate" charging window is rarely 8 hours long.
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:54 pm

garygid wrote:Construction extension cords are usually plugged and unplugged at least once a day.

RVs, Boats, and most of the rest of the world use 200-240v regularly. There is no data that I can find that shows significant electrical deaths due to non-comercial use of 240v in the USA. One big killer is crane operators swinging their crane booms into high-voltage lines.

The "EVSE" connection has two ends, car and "wall". Using a specific connector on the car end helps standardize. The other end could be made a "standard" as well (to help with plugging into commercial/public charging locations). A few adapters would enable one to utilize other commonly-found sockets (RV park, etc.).

They said people were too stupid to choose leaded or unleaded gas, or vote, or understand the propositions that they are voting on, or use voting machines, or ... not smoke while fueling up, but people learned and adapted.

Two states still require gas station attendants, Oregon and New Jersey. I do not know why. In other states grandma and "Slim" learned how to do it without blowing up the station.

If you take away the really deadly things, CARs themselves would be one of the very first to go!

Yes, and i see them get replaced often because the don't last.

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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:05 pm

Jeepers, guys, buy an EVSE from AV and put a dryer plug on it...
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:09 pm

Everyone- this stuff has been hashed out on the EV lists like the EVDL for years. If you buy a leaf you will be using a J connector. If you are savvy and want adaptors for using dryer outlets, etc you can build one and it will work well and in the next year there will certainly be aftermarket UL solutions. The topic of cords and plugs is blown way, way out of proportion. Anyone that wants to be buried in extensive EV detail, number crunching, cord discussion, etc and communicate with many experienced EV people should join a list like the very long lived EVDL where there are many people who have been down this road a thousand times. By the time most get a Leaf I would bet you can buy an EVSE without install at a reasonable cost. This is an exact repeat of when the AVCON boxes came out, this is nothing new, just a new plug end. I would be more focused on the inflated pricing on some EVSE labor charges, people will look back on this and laugh at how this entire situation will change and how people were charged a premium for these boxes.

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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:36 pm

Thanks EVDRIVER. This discussion is crazy. The $721 or so they want for the EVSE is not that bad. The ripoff is the $1300 installation. If they come up with that number for me, then I'll just call the number listed on the Leaf website and let them know that I'll purchase the EVSE and all the permits from AV but I'll have it installed by my neighbor who is a licensed electrician. Simple.
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planet4ever
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:40 pm

garygid wrote:As it is now, I cannot drive 60 miles across town to visit grandma, recharge while I am there for a few hours, and drive back home. All because I would have to install an expensive EVSE there, instead of simply using a plug-in EVSE a few times a month?
If it's "60 miles across town" then you live in a bigger "town" than I do! :roll: (Yeah, I know, the whole LA basin is essentially one big "town".)

What I'm really wondering is where you plan to plug in when you get to Grandma's house. Does she have an electric dryer in the garage that she won't mind you unplugging? (You can kiss any thought of 6.6kW charging goodbye if you are using a 30A circuit.) Will you have to park her car on the street and take over her garage? Grandmas do love their grandkids, and will do most anything for them, but grandkids and their parents need to understand that grandmas tend to develop some rather rigid life patterns they don't like to upset, even if they try not to complain. Love needs to go both ways.

Maybe when you go visit Grandma you should plan to spend five or six hours there; do a couple of handyman jobs around while she takes her nap, and then take her out to dinner. 120 miles should be doable if you charge five hours at 120v and take it easy on the drive, maybe even use Eco mode.

Hey, ;) I'm not trying to say that I think I know how you should live your life, but I hope you don't mind hearing the perspective of an old grandma and grandpa. (We have two great-grandchildren. :D )
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