AndyH
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:17 pm

Glutton for punishment. (mommy, mommy make it stop!)

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutT ... 10-ROC.pdf

A portable EVSE still has to comply with 625.29. Check the comment on left/bottom of page 454:
_______________________________________________________________
12-34 Log #2405 NEC-P12 Final Action: Accept
(625.29(B))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Brian E. Rock, Hubbell Inc.
Comment on Proposal No: 12-64
Recommendation: I support the panel action.
Substantiation: This Comment is provided to aid Panel 12 with regard to the
accuracy of the Panel Statement for P12-84. As one of the co-authors (along
with Tim Croushore, Greg Nieminski, Charlie Claar, Craig Toepfer, etc.) under
EPRI IWC Task Force Chair Dave Brown of the original Article 625, I can
provide insight as to the technical basis for the 18-inch lower height limit that
the Submitter sought to change.
The primary purpose of the National Electrical Code® is to insure
installations safe from the risk of fire and shock.
To the extent that other
mandates unrelated to this primary purpose (such as ADA), those were taken
into account, as reflected by 4-foot upper height limit from ADA. Where
those mandates for other purposes leava a “gap” in terms of electrically safe
installations, the primary purpose must predominate.

For the lower limit, however, the use of electric vehicle charging equipment
is highly likely in a mixed environment of electric-powered and gasolinepowered
vehicles. This mixed usage environment includes refueling/recharing
of gasoline- and electric-powered vehicles.
Section 625.28 requires that EVSE installed in Hazardous (Classified)
Locations must comply with Articles 500 through 516, specifically Article 514
for Motor Fuel Dispensing Facilities. Table 514.3(B)(1) establishes an upper
gasoline fume height limit of 18 inches, this was taken by the Task Force to
establish the lower limit for nonhazardous (unclassified) ordinary locations
so that there would be no “gray areas” with regard to this boundary between
potential gasoline fume accumulation and where EVSE could be safely located
in ordinary locations.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 14
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 14
If in doubt, the primary purpose must predominate. Ultimately, the primary purpose of the NEC is to make installations safe from fire and shock.

This shows that there's a living web of interconnectedness in these docs and that other requirements must be considered before making a decision. Sorry to beat on this, but cherry picking the desired sentence might get one into trouble more often than helping...

Another comment from the same doc, same page, right column, bottom. Note the dialog with regards the use of 'per'. Note especially that there is a style manual for the NEC and that “NEC language shall be brief, clear, and emphatic.” Read into an article with caution.

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evnow
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:21 pm

AndyH wrote:Glutton for punishment. (mommy, mommy make it stop!)

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutT ... 10-ROC.pdf
I was going to look through nfpa to get to the bottom of this level 2 hard-wired thing. There must be some comments etc about this which should guide us. Obviously the code itslef is not clear.
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:25 pm

evnow wrote:
AndyH wrote:Glutton for punishment. (mommy, mommy make it stop!)

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutT ... 10-ROC.pdf
I was going to look through nfpa to get to the bottom of this level 2 hard-wired thing. There must be some comments etc about this which should guide us. Obviously the code itslef is not clear.
Go for it! :D

This is as far as I've gotten. I don't know if there are modifications prior to or after this that affect this finding.
Page 453, left column, mid-page RE: 625.13
Substantiation: EVSE meeting the requirements of 625.18, 625.19, and 625.29 can be cord-and-plug connected even with it is greater than 120 VAC.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:59 pm

AndyH wrote: Or say 'screw it' and let them install the EVSE, wave good-by, yank the thing off the wall, and attach a plug. :twisted:
That wouldn't be hard to do of course. Just use the wires they ran to supply a 220v receptacle, and put a 220v pigtail on the EVSE. But that raises another question... if they wired your EVSE on a 40A circuit, you'll need a range plug (14-50). If your EVSE was wired on a 20A circuit, or you don't mind changing the DIP switch to limit it to 20A draw, you could use a dryer plug (14-30). It's really only the latter of the two that accomplishes anything in most cases as people probably aren't planning to show up at their friends house some afternoon and ask if they can pull their stove out so they can top off for the ride home.

Another question I haven't seen discussed, apologies if I missed it... do we know if the EVSE is connected with a neutral wire, ie 4 wire, or is it just 3 wire (two hots and a ground) ? I don't think the older style 3-wire 220V outlets, either dryer or range, are allowed any more. Of course if you're breaking the rules anyway it doesn't matter, and 3-wire devices are still available. Just plan on correcting it before the inspection when you sell the house.
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garygid
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:42 pm

It appears that the J1772 spec does NOT require a "neutral" in a typical 240v panel connection. All connections require Ground (and two "Power-providing" lines).

The install instructions for some L2 EVSEs might "require" 4 wires, 2 hot, the ground, AND a neutral. But, for them to require the "240-neutral" would appear to be "beyond" the J1772 standard.

Other upcoming 240v / 208v units are specificly described as not using (and thus not needing) the "neutral", which appears to match the J1772 spec.

Any typical 208 volt connection will use one "hot" phase line and the supply's "neutral" line as the two hot wires.

Typical 120v service (from split-phase 240v) will supply one "hot" (Line1 or Line2) and the neutral as the two "hot" wires to the EVSE.

It would be unusual for a 120v supply to not have one "hot" line and one near-ground ("neutral") line.

From the EVSE, only 4 wires, the 2 hot, the ground, and the added Control Pilot wire, go through the e-fuel cable to the J1772 connector.

Edited 7/15/2010 (again) for more correct info.
Last edited by garygid on Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:16 pm

garygid wrote:The L2 EVSE "requires" 4 wires, 2 hot, neutral, and ground.
Clipper Creek is doing something special. According to their CS product (http://www.clippercreek.net/images/Clip ... ochure.pdf)
GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS
Service Entrance:
208 V to 240 V – 30 to 100 Amp,
single phase, 2-wire, with
ground, use of additional wire
for neutral is unnecessary
(Unique to ClipperCreek).
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AndyH
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:57 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
AndyH wrote: Or say 'screw it' and let them install the EVSE, wave good-by, yank the thing off the wall, and attach a plug. :twisted:
That wouldn't be hard to do of course. Just use the wires they ran to supply a 220v receptacle, and put a 220v pigtail on the EVSE. But that raises another question... if they wired your EVSE on a 40A circuit, you'll need a range plug (14-50). If your EVSE was wired on a 20A circuit, or you don't mind changing the DIP switch to limit it to 20A draw, you could use a dryer plug (14-30). It's really only the latter of the two that accomplishes anything in most cases as people probably aren't planning to show up at their friends house some afternoon and ask if they can pull their stove out so they can top off for the ride home.

Another question I haven't seen discussed, apologies if I missed it... do we know if the EVSE is connected with a neutral wire, ie 4 wire, or is it just 3 wire (two hots and a ground) ? I don't think the older style 3-wire 220V outlets, either dryer or range, are allowed any more. Of course if you're breaking the rules anyway it doesn't matter, and 3-wire devices are still available. Just plan on correcting it before the inspection when you sell the house.
Smart question! :D

The J1772 Jan 2010 spec shows that both the L1 and L2 spec use two 'hot' and a ground. (120V Level 1: L1, L2 or N, Gnd. 240V Level 2: L1, L2 or N, Gnd)

The home product L2 from Clipper Creek, the LCS-20, specifies 208/240VAC, 16A (20A circuit), 2-wire with ground.

Tossing the standard rules aside makes us the designers and dumps all the responsibility on our shoulders. What fun!

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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:13 am

I'm seeing now why the specification is calling for hard-wiring 220V EVSEs even though it doesn't make the dryer plug proponents happy.

Relying on a dryer plugs you have the issue of 3-prong vs 4-prong, the operator of the EVSE properly setting the DIP switches, and more nebulous concern with proximity: Not everyone's dryer is in the garage, it might be in the house somewhere, requiring this 220 volt cable laying on the floor, passing through open doors, creating a variety of hazards.

The founding fathers probably want to avoid all these issues.

BTW no doubt the clipper creek thing doesn't require a neutral because its internal electronics are stepped down from the 220V supply rather than 110V
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:27 am

1. I updated my post above that said 240v neutral was "required". Although it is possible that some 240v EVSE might require the Neutral, that is "beyond" the J1772 spec.

2. The CC unit might not use a transformer, but just a little "universal" power supply instead.

3. Older 3-prong dryer plugs had 240v (Line1 and Line2) and Neutral, but NOT ground. However, Ground was usually available as a wire connected to the socket.

4. Newer 4-prong dryer plugs have neutral and ground.

5. Replacing a convenient socket with a better, safer, switched socket would be the "better" way to use a plug-in 240v EVSE.
Last edited by garygid on Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:40 pm

garygid wrote:1. I updated my post above that said 240v neutral was "required". The AV EVSE might require the 240v and neutral, but that is "beyond" the J1772 spec.
Do you have any factual info from any EVSE producer that shows a four-wire AC input?

edit:

The Nissan EVSE installation video shows the installer pulling three wires thru the wall. http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric- ... w/charging

The AeroVironment video clearly shows a three-wire connection inside the EVSE.
Image
(It also shows an installer that shouldn't be wearing a ring...)

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