Herm
Well-known member
It would be interesting to see if the lost bar affects the trade-in value.
How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?
- Thread starter RegGuheert
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RegGuheert
Well-known member
It should. In many regards, it is more important than the odometer reading.Herm said:
It will be interesting to see how Edmund's deals with Blue Book values on EVs and whether battery condition eventually gets factored in.
Herm
Well-known member
Most appraisers wont even see that lost bars.. the first owners to trade-in will benefit from it, until prices collapse* and Nissan amends the warranty and updates the software under heavy bad publicity.
* in AZ, clearly it will pay to follow this forum
* in AZ, clearly it will pay to follow this forum
Pipcecil
Well-known member
What I don't understand currently is how Nissan has publicly stated that the battery capacity losses are isolated incidences and are only happening to a few vehicles. But, if these are isolated, that means the loss is NOT NORMAL. So, if its not normal, our batteries and cells should be replaced. If it is normal, then none of these losses should be isolated to a select few. Could Nissan have talked themselves into a corner? You can't have a few isolated incidences be considered normal in my opinion. Either most people have it happen and its normal, or only a few and its abnormal (and requires replacement and repair).
myleaf
Well-known member
Pipcecil said:
I'm in AZ (about to loose a bar) so I am with you. But Nissan may consider "isolated instances" as being the Leafs which operate in very hot climates compared to the global population of Leafs.
Stoaty
Well-known member
They are just throwing up every excuse hoping something will stick. It doesn't have to make logical sense:Pipcecil said:
1) This isn't really happening
2) If it is happening, it is normal anyway
3) Even if it isn't normal, we said that there is gradual capacity loss that depends on a variety of environmental factors and driving/charging habits, so you probably brought it on yourself
4) Even if you didn't bring it on yourself, that's just the nature of lithium ion batteries
Herm
Well-known member
They cant afford to damage their global investment.. so expect a reaction soon. I'm sure they are following this forum avidly now.
RegGuheert
Well-known member
One more thought on this: I'm wondering if the LI-ION GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS DATA CLEAR command discussed on page EVC-107 of the Nissan LEAF service manual resets lost capacity bars if it is executed on a car with an older battery.Herm said:
If so, then I suspect some unscrupulous sellers will reset that just as some do with odometers today. The manual says it is only to be executed in the case of the installation of a new battery or a new battery controller, but that won't stop some people.
surfingslovak
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Many people follow this thread, and if the goal was to be heard, we may have shot way past the target. Although I believe that many folks would find more transparency desirable and comforting, this is a competitive industry. If Nissan was indeed temporarily restricting maximum state of charge during hot weather to help protect the battery, I wouldn't expect to see public disclosure of such behavior. Personally, and based on the few data points we have, I believe that it's happening. This could account for up to 5 - 10% of battery capacity. Again, it's just a guess, and depending on the condition of the pack, it might not be enough to bring the lost capacity bars back come fall and winter. I think virtually everyone on this forum is level-headed, and would like to see this program succeed. Let's approach it from that angle.Herm said:
myleaf
Well-known member
surfingslovak said:Many people follow this thread, and if the goal was to be heard, we may have shot way past the target. Although I believe that many folks would find more transparency desirable and comforting, this is a competitive industry. If Nissan was indeed temporarily restricting maximum state of charge during hot weather to help protect the battery, I wouldn't expect to see public disclosure of such behavior. Personally, and based on the few data points we have, I believe that it's happening. This could account for up to 5 - 10% of battery capacity. Again, it's just a guess, and depending on the condition of the pack, it might not be enough to bring the lost capacity bars back come fall and winter. I think virtually everyone on this forum is level-headed, and wants to see this program succeed. Let's approach it from that angle.Herm said:
This is a possibility. Can this be confirmed by checking the battery capacity of a "new" Leaf in AZ or TX ??
surfingslovak said:Many people follow this thread, and if the goal was to be heard, we may have shot way past the target. Although I believe that many folks would find more transparency desirable and comforting, this is a competitive industry. If Nissan was indeed temporarily restricting maximum state of charge during hot weather to help protect the battery, I wouldn't expect to see public disclosure of such behavior. Personally, and based on the few data points we have, I believe that it's happening. This could account for up to 5 - 10% of battery capacity. Again, it's just a guess, and depending on the condition of the pack, it might not be enough to bring the lost capacity bars back come fall and winter. I think virtually everyone on this forum is level-headed, and would like to see this program succeed. Let's approach it from that angle.Herm said:
Should be easy enough to test this theory.
Take a car that has "lost capacity" and run the car down to 50% SOC.
Park the car in an air conditioned shop and run the shop air conditioner on max to cold soak the car down to 72 F or lower. I would guess 24 hours would be long enough.
After 24 hours of cold soaking. Charge the car to 100% SOC and read the GID number and pack voltage.
surfingslovak
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There was a 2-month old Leaf in Texas, which was reading 265 Gids, a 6% reduction of capacity. Another data point is a Leaf in Seattle, which saw 10% capacity reduction (252 Gids) following multiple QCs and nine temperature bars a day earlier.myleaf said:
Yes, great idea, this should help confirm the behavior, if it existed. It's worth noting that we don't know how long the car needs to spend away from heat sources.KJD said:
I didnt see this posted. I must have missed it, because I'm not sure how a Volt owner would post something about a Leaf that is over a week old...
Nissan Responds:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076847_2011-nissan-leaf-battery-capacity-loss-nissan-responds" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nissan Responds:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076847_2011-nissan-leaf-battery-capacity-loss-nissan-responds" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
RegGuheert
Well-known member
Except that I suspect the algorithm includes a running average of temperatures over the past few days or a week.KJD said:
myleaf
Well-known member
surfingslovak said:There was a 2-month old Leaf in Texas, which was reading 265 Gids, a 6% reduction of capacity. Another data point is a Leaf in Seattle, which saw 10% capacity reduction (252 Gids) following multiple QCs and nine temperature bars a day earlier.myleaf said:
Yes, great idea, this should help confirm the behavior, if it existed. It's worth noting that we don't know how long the car needs to spend away from heat sources.KJD said:
Both the TX and WA datapoints noted capacity reduction after multiple QCs. It would be good info to know if and how long it took for capacity to recover for a car operating in a cool environment.
edatoakrun
Well-known member
RegGuheert said:
...or a few weeks, or a month, or a year, or even longer.
Which is why I'd encourage all LEAF owners with the opportunity to monitor their available battery capacity, keep records from the earliest available time possible, and also note to both ambient and battery (bar status) temperature.
If you have a gid/SOC meter, use it. If you don't, Id suggest a series of capacity tests using Carwings, such as:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
phxsmiley
Well-known member
Is there an email address or some avenue to complain to someone knowledgeable at Nissan about this early capacity loss issue? I think our only avenue is the dealership, but they don't have the bigger picture here. It seems like we should be getting a little more vocal about it, I'm just so disappointed.
surfingslovak
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That's great advice.edatoakrun said:
Given the amount of scrutiny this thread gets, you can be sure that you've been hard. If you wanted to go beyond that, I would suggest that you gave their support line a call: 1-877-664-2738. If you were on Facebook, it might make sense to send a private message to the staff running the Nissan Leaf page.phxsmiley said:
shrink
Well-known member
phxsmiley said:
Leafkabob and I are trying to organize a Phoenix area discussion group about how best to express our concerns to Nissan. One of us will PM you with some details.
DesertDenizen
Well-known member
Another 100 degree day here in Tucson, and this thread has me counting the bars every time I start up now that I am approaching one year with my Leaf. Still love it though.
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