Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Herm said:

edatoakrun said:

azdre/opossum.
I think you have damaged your own credibility, with your 7/30 edit to your post starting this thread:

EDIT: 7/30/2012
Summary of thread: This is definitely a problem in hot climates. There appears to be NO correlation to car color, air conditioned garages, 80% charging, driving efficiency, miles driven, quick charging, or anything else beside outside ambient temperature.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I doubt he/she will give you more information if you insult them.. from all the data posted in this long thread the common denominator appears to be Arizona.. must be contaminated electrons from that sewage cooled nuclear plant.

Click to expand...

Actually Herm, I believe I made the utmost efforts to not insult them, much as I try to do when you make one of your absurd statements in regard to anthropogenic climate change.

In fact, while long term battery exposure to higher temperatures clearly seems to be the largest factor in capacity bar disappearance, very few of those with the multiple bar losses have posted as much information about their battery care practices as these two have, and I have credited them for their initial candor.

Our exchange of comments, on the first day of this thread, over three months ago:

azdre wrote:
Let's see if I can answer all of your questions:

* We always charge to 100% (we drive it a lot, 17,000 miles in 14 months of driving).
* We do 'top it off' a lot. That's the one item we got 4/5 stars on the battery check in March 2012.
* The car sat at 100% for a month in May, 2011, not plugged in.
* It's almost always garaged or in covered parking.
* We get the low battery warning about once a month.
* Never turtled. Been meaning to try this out though.
* We've QC'd 2-3 times this spring.
* There's been no error messages (aside from the A/C fiasco last summer, please don't make me relive that one.)
* My husband is a nut about keeping the tire pressure monitored and consistant.
* I'll pull the carwings data and add it to here tonight.

I'm thinking I should take it in to the dealer for some documentation even if they turn me away initially.

Click to expand...

I replied:

Yes, I would, in your situation.

I don't intend to be critical, but given your location, if heat and time spent at 100% charge are the greatest variables in loss of capacity, Your 12th bar, could perhaps, be just be the first "canary" to stop signing.

Please report back, when you find out more, about how much range and kWh capacity that bar corresponds to.

Click to expand...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is, however, irresponsible, IMO, for any one to use the edit function on the first post of a thread, to post, as a summary of the thread, their own opinions, not held my many (and probably most, in this case) of the participants in the discussion.

azdre

EDIT: 7/30/2012
Summary of thread: This is definitely a problem in hot climates. There appears to be NO correlation to car color, air conditioned garages, 80% charging, driving efficiency, miles driven, quick charging, or anything else beside outside ambient temperature...

Click to expand...

I chose my words very carefully when I made the comment you quoted, and I still hold the same opinion, today.

Gonewild said:

Yes I am not happy.. I spoke with Mark Perry about 30 time in the last year which was great.

Click to expand...

I'll bet that you can go back through EVERY single private email, and he will not have ONCE admitted to a specific problem or specific remedy.

Please turn in your lease today, and lease another if you want. Or rent a LEAF for a few weeks or months. Then, you can wait for their resolution (which first would require admitting to a problem), and if that's satisfactory to you, then get another 2013 LEAF lease.

Please don't let indecision cost you money. And don't let any familiarity with Mr. Perry let you put down your guard. Hedge your bets on a known issue.

Turn it in today, before the window of opportunity disappears.

YUP, I have inspection of the car by AIM company and I will mail the check to NMAC ATTn Early Terminations.

I read the letter they fax me and it says about over miles but I have 25,000 miles of the 45,000 I could have put on so she said I would be OK. I just hope that is what happens. And not prorated.

Gonewild said:

YUP, I have inspection of the car by AIM company and I will mail the check to NMAC ATTn Early Terminations.

I read the letter they fax me and it says about over miles but I have 25,000 miles of the 45,000 I could have put on so she said I would be OK. I just hope that is what happens. And not prorated.

Click to expand...

Glad you have an out. I was going to share my experience that I jumped at the chance to sell the 2011 I bought and have zero regrets. In fact, it's been a huge relief.

TonyWilliams said:

We really do need to find out if range is impacted, as I'm reasonably sure it should be, which seems that Nissan didn't test for in Casa Grande. They didn't drive the cars enough for that.

Click to expand...

TickTock has already verified that they drained the packs to test capacity and the results match exactly with his energy-from-the-wall turtle-100% measurements which is a more reliable indicator of usable capacity than relying on the dash mi/kWh gauge and odometer.

drees said:

TonyWilliams said:

We really do need to find out if range is impacted, as I'm reasonably sure it should be, which seems that Nissan didn't test for in Casa Grande. They didn't drive the cars enough for that.

Click to expand...

TickTock has already verified that they drained the packs to test capacity and the results match exactly with his energy-from-the-wall turtle-100% measurements which is a more reliable indicator of usable capacity than relying on the dash mi/kWh gauge and odometer.

Click to expand...

Well, that's good news. Although, multimillion dollar aircraft with absolute state of the art engineering and extreme government scrutiny, still do test flights.

Both the onboard odometer and economy meter can both be eliminated, and still drive the car at 60mph (GPS derived) on a flat, no wind, sea level road should result in something close to 84 miles range (GPS derived). Anything less should match the energy used (external to LEAF measurement) to recharge the battery back to 100%.

In aviation, we might call that a "cross check".

TonyWilliams said:

In aviation, we might call that a "cross check".

Click to expand...

But unless you have a test track at your disposal, the typical person is never going to duplicate the exact same conditions with confidence unless you are able to repeat the test so you can average data...

drees said:

TonyWilliams said:

In aviation, we might call that a "cross check".

Click to expand...

But unless you have a test track at your disposal, the typical person is never going to duplicate the exact same conditions with confidence unless you are able to repeat the test so you can average data...

Click to expand...

No, you can use a dynomometer. I can rent one near my house for $150.

TonyWilliams said:

drees said:

TonyWilliams said:

In aviation, we might call that a "cross check".

Click to expand...

But unless you have a test track at your disposal, the typical person is never going to duplicate the exact same conditions with confidence unless you are able to repeat the test so you can average data...

Click to expand...

No, you can use a dynomometer. I can rent one near my house for $150.

Click to expand...

Good Point, I own one, I didnt think about just driving it on the Dyno for an hour or so, could get 70mph distance , or check distance set at 55mph. Normally you think about engine cool down but less of an issues for the electric car. Large fan should be fine for battery cooling, I will consider this as an option. but I drive the same roads. the same speed 5 days aweek. you should be able to see averages after just a week or so.

mksE55 said:

TonyWilliams said:

No, you can use a dynomometer. I can rent one near my house for $150.

Click to expand...

Good Point, I own one,

Click to expand...

That's quite convenient for you. Dynomometers eliminate virtually every variable; drag from air resistance, density altitude, wind, temperature (controlled indoors to whatever you want), etc. Any potential lawsuits will want data from multiple sources, and dyno's would be difficult for a Nissan lawyer to pick apart as flawed data. I would still have independent source battery tests, independent third party actual road test with strictly defined parameters, and third party administers dyno tests, all to prove the change in range from the "control" new car(s) to your car.

To get a "control" car; maybe go to the dealership and tell them you want to test drive a brand new LEAF for a few hours, to "check out the range". Arrive at your dyno, charge the LEAF to 100%, preferably get a Gid measurement, and the future LEAFscan will be very handy for a battery temperature measurement. I wouldn't waste any effort putting a fan on the battery; it's a sealed, slightly pressurized container that isn't getting much air circulation around while normally driving down the highway (there's a big aerodynamic fairing covering the bottom of the car). NOTE: battery temperature doesn't change quickly in differing ambient air conditions; don't take a hot or cold car from outside, and expect the battery to be at indoor ambient temperature any time soon. Let the car sit overnight inside at a controlled temperature first.

I'd probably also recommend using the same exact tires on the control car as you do on your car. The rest should be simple; set the cruise control on 60mph, but you need a way to actually measure that the wheel speed is in fact 60 mph. There are plenty of ways to do that. In case you don't know, you can change speed in 1 mph increments on the cruise control by pressing the up or down button once for each mph.

Run it from 100% charged to dead. Charge up enough to return to dealership !!! Record pertinent data; how far did the odometer measure, and compare that to the time at 1 mile per minute (60mph) to calibrate the odometer, temperature, front tires used, dyno load required to hold 60mph, etc.

Now run your car and compare. Share the results with us !!!!!!!

TonyWilliams said:

mksE55 said:

TonyWilliams said:

No, you can use a dynomometer. I can rent one near my house for $150.

Click to expand...

Good Point, I own one,

Click to expand...

That's quite convenient for you. Dynomometers eliminate virtually every variable; drag from air resistance, density altitude, wind, temperature (controlled indoors to whatever you want), etc. Any potential lawsuits will want data from multiple sources, and dyno's would be difficult for a Nissan lawyer to pick apart as flawed data. I would still have independent source battery tests, independent third party actual roads test with strictly defined parameters, and third party administers dyno tests, all to prove the change in range for the "control" new car(s).

To get a "control" car; maybe go to the dealership and tell them you want to test drive a brand new LEAF for a few hours, to "check out the range". Pick up, go to your dyno, charge to 100%, preferably get a Gid measurement, and the future LEAFscan will be very handy for a battery temperature measurement. I wouldn't waste any effort putting a fan on the battery; it's a sealed, slightly pressurized container that isn't getting much air circulation around normally driving down the highway (there's a big aerodynamic fairing covering the bottom of the car).

I'd probably also recommend using the same exact tires on the control car as you do on your car. The rest should be simple; set the cruise control on 60mph, but you need a way to actually measure the wheel speed is in fact 60 mph. There are plenty of ways to do that. If you don't know, you can change speed in 1 mph increments on the cruise control by pressing the up or down button once for each mph.

Run it from 100% charged to dead. Charge up enough to return to dealership !!! Record pertinent data; how far did the odometer measure, and compare that to the time at 1 mile per minute (60mph) to calibrate the odometer, temperature, front tires used, dyno load required to hold 60mph, etc.

Now run your car and compare. Share the results with us !!!!!!!

Click to expand...

I will give it some thought but will take time to arrange, My dealership is an hr away, I would have a dead leaf when I get it home and will need 4-5 hrs of recharge to get it ready for the test ,then another 4-5 hrs to refill and then an hour back to the dealership. They may not be happy I just put 160 miles on their new car in 1 day. Obviously an under taking to do all in 1 day, but doable. I can always do my car when time permits. has stock tires , and speed , air temp, already monitored by Dyno. We use it freq to check car speedos when someone gets a ticket.

TonyWilliams said:

I wouldn't waste any effort putting a fan on the battery; it's a sealed, slightly pressurized container that isn't getting much air circulation around normally driving down the highway (there's a big aerodynamic fairing covering the bottom of the car).

Click to expand...

Tony, great write-up. Sound advice on the dynamometer, wanted to mention it as well, but you beat me to it.

I agree that it's not worth bothering blowing a fan at the front of the car, especially if it's a demo or a loaner. However, and in the name of science, you might want to try the following:

1. Remove the emergency shutoff hatch
2. Open your front windows an inch
3. Drive the Leaf at 35 mph or above (freeway speeds would be ideal)

I would be curious to know what your opinion of air circulation around the battery will be then. For what it's worth, I'm under the impression that most of the air is sucked into the cabin from the opening below the rear seat and it's unclear to me how much air, if any, is forced around the pack from the front of the vehicle.

mksE55 said:

They may not be happy I just put 160 miles on their new car in 1 day. Obviously an under taking to do all in 1 day, but doable. I can always do my car when time permits. has stock tires , and speed , air temp, already monitored by Dyno. We use it freq to check car speedos when someone gets a ticket.

Click to expand...

I think you are WELL equipped. Do you have any kind of state (or government) certification for measuring speed?

I would probably trailer the LEAF, in your situation. Get the LEAF from the lot, drive two blocks to your waiting trailer or tow dolly !!!! Easy. Also, some of the rental outfits (at least in California) have a rental LEAF, like Hertz and Enterprise.

mksE55 said:

Good Point, I own one, I didnt think about just driving it on the Dyno for an hour or so, could get 70mph distance , or check distance set at 55mph. Normally you think about engine cool down but less of an issues for the electric car. Large fan should be fine for battery cooling, I will consider this as an option. but I drive the same roads. the same speed 5 days aweek. you should be able to see averages after just a week or so.

Click to expand...

If your looking for capacity loss, IMO, the best use of the Dyno would be to repeat tests on the same car (or cars) over time, to eliminate all variables between different cars from the capacity question. It would be great to begin testing the same car from new, but you might also get some interesting results from tests at different temperatures, by testing your own car now, and again in a few months, under cooler battery temps.

Since it sounds like you didn't try this from new (edit- obviously not. Just read you bar loss report and history) maybe another New LEAF owner near you (are there any?) would like to give it a try?

There are arguments for testing from 80% but I think 100% is probably what most LEAF drivers are most interested in.

My own suggestion would be to stop at VLBW, as I really think the consensus is that this should be a fairly fixed charge level in a constant kw use test, and the only likely deleterious effect on the battery life would be the one additional charge cycle.

No need to risk turning battery tests, into a battery autopsy, by multiple runs to "dead", IMO.

I'd also recommend checking Carwings reports of kWh use for this "trip", as well as your trips on "...the same roads. the same speed 5 days a week..."

You might find close enough correlations of kWh use (between the identical charge levels) that the benefits of multiple Dyno runs, as opposed to the effort involved, are not significant.

Gonewild said:

YUP, I have inspection of the car by AIM company and I will mail the check to NMAC ATTn Early Terminations.

I read the letter they fax me and it says about over miles but I have 25,000 miles of the 45,000 I could have put on so she said I would be OK. I just hope that is what happens. And not prorated.

Click to expand...

Dude!! your deal is too good to be true. i have little doubt in my mind you are getting special concessions due to your battery issues. excess mileage was VERY specifically spelled out as being a non issue ONLY if purchased.

if you prorated your 25,000 on a 15,000 mile per year basis, correct me if i am wrong but you are significantly over that, correct?

I would like Mark Perry's email, As I emailed Nissan's Consumer Affairs team ATTN: Mark Perry. Do you have and email or phone number for him?

Gonewild said:

shrink said:

Gonewild said:

I just lost me second bar today at 75% at full charge.

Click to expand...

That is most unfortunate. I cannot imagine how frustrated you must be feeling.

Click to expand...

Yes I am not happy.. I spoke with Mark Perry about 30 time in the last year which was great. I just got an email reply from the email I sent this morning.

I told him I can't wait to find out there is not real fix. The lease cancel is just to cheap right now at $429. If I wait a month the resale value of the car can drop as much as $5,000 or something and that $429 will turn to $5429.

I have about $8,000 in the car now and have saved about $3,000 in gas over the 25,000 I put on the car so it is not as bad as it could be. I $5,000 lesson is cheap compared to the $40,000 car full price.

Click to expand...

TonyWilliams said:

drees said:

TonyWilliams said:

In aviation, we might call that a "cross check".

Click to expand...

But unless you have a test track at your disposal, the typical person is never going to duplicate the exact same conditions with confidence unless you are able to repeat the test so you can average data...

Click to expand...

No, you can use a dynomometer. I can rent one near my house for $150.

Click to expand...

Would they let you use it for the time it takes to drain a Leaf's battery? Driving an hour or more on a dyno is no fun.

Also, would there be any overheating issues of the dyno itself? I've only used one once when a company was giving free pulls one day. They had to space out the runs as they said their dyno was overheating since they'd never done so many runs in a day before. We were obviously shooting for max horsepower and not a battery drain test w/constant speed.

I have his business card he gave me and it has email and cell phone and fax numbers.

But sorry I can not share the information. He would be spammed to death.

Gonewild said:

I have his business card he gave me and it has email and cell phone and fax numbers.

But sorry I can not share the information. He would be spammed to death.

Click to expand...

Thanks for not disclosing that. Nothing productive would come out of it. For you guys who want to have indirect contact with Mark Perry, the San Fran BayLEAF guys can contact him. I have his contact info also, but I don't wish to be an intermediary.

http://sfbayleafs.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

or PM "gascant" of "OrientExpress"

cwerdna said:

Would they let you use it for the time it takes to drain a Leaf's battery? Driving an hour or more on a dyno is no fun.

Click to expand...

EDIT: I totally blew chunks on this one!!

I don't know what the duty cycle is, but the LEAF at 60mph is consuming but about 250watt/Hours per mile (15kW), or 1kWh per 4 minutes (60/4=15kW, or 20 horsepower).