DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
rumor has it RapidGate fix for European market only because North American Market did not complain enough.
DaveinOlyWA said:rumor has it RapidGate fix for European market only because North American Market did not complain enough.
OrientExpress said:DaveinOlyWA said:rumor has it RapidGate fix for European market only because North American Market did not complain enough.
The US won't be receiving the European fix, mainly because Nissan has the charging data for all of the US fleet, and found that only a very small minority of 2018 cars that are part of the affected universe fast charge more than once a day, and they also have all of the service information for the same universe, and none to just a few customers ever brought their cars in for service presenting the charging slowdown after multiple charges as an issue. The logic is why spend time, effort and expense to fix something that does not seem to be broken.
If that was the "logic" they would issue a TSB, aka voluntary fix.OrientExpress said:DaveinOlyWA said:rumor has it RapidGate fix for European market only because North American Market did not complain enough.
The US won't be receiving the European fix, mainly because Nissan has the charging data for all of the US fleet, and found that only a very small minority of 2018 cars that are part of the affected universe fast charge more than once a day, and they also have all of the service information for the same universe, and none to just a few customers ever brought their cars in for service presenting the charging slowdown after multiple charges as an issue. The logic is why spend time, effort and expense to fix something that does not seem to be broken.
SageBrush said:If that was the "logic" they would issue a TSB, aka voluntary fix.OrientExpress said:DaveinOlyWA said:rumor has it RapidGate fix for European market only because North American Market did not complain enough.
The US won't be receiving the European fix, mainly because Nissan has the charging data for all of the US fleet, and found that only a very small minority of 2018 cars that are part of the affected universe fast charge more than once a day, and they also have all of the service information for the same universe, and none to just a few customers ever brought their cars in for service presenting the charging slowdown after multiple charges as an issue. The logic is why spend time, effort and expense to fix something that does not seem to be broken.
That is the excuse. I'll bet the reason is that the fix in non-cool climates is a BAD IDEA
DaveinOlyWA said:What Nissan failed to quantify was the steps many of us took to help alleviate the issues which led to "better" statistics that Nissan chose to use.
Again another "no option" decision. Thank you Nissan for letting me decide what is best for me! :evil:
OrientExpress said:The challenge for all of you that feel aggrieved is that the actual data does not support your argument. Nissan knows exactly how all of you quick charge, and how everyone else quick charges too, so No, they didn't fail to quantify your experiments because they were irrelevant in the larger data set of all 2018 LEAFs in the range of VINs. Each of you are just one data point weighed equally.
But what is relevant is that Nissan has the data that shows that of all the LEAFs in the VIN range do very few multiple daily quick charges. And they also know that an even smaller number of owners have gone to a dealer to have their car checked to see there is an issue with their car where multiple-daily charges are slower. On top of that Nissan has declared that this slowdown of charging is a part of an intentional battery longevity strategy to keep your car's battery from degrading.
Now, of this tiny group, how many of you took you car to a dealer to get your perceived problem logged?
As far as Nissan can tell, cars in the US don't have an issue with having a quick charge take a little longer than other quick charges, given that variability of charge times is a well established trait of quick charging.
Nissan does not think there is a major problem, they do know that some owners are miffed that QC's sometimes take longer, but they do know based on the data that the majority of their customers don't think it is a problem either.
So in the end, their battery safety strategy is working as designed, customers aren't seeing any issue, so what is there to fix?
Now it's obvious that some 2018 customers here on this forum think they have an issue, but other than complaining have nothing to build a case to support their argument, so if you think you have a case, build a good argument to support that case.
Now as disclosure, I have one of these early 2018 LEAFs, but in a year of driving the car, I've only encountered one QC session that was slightly longer than normal, so as far as I can tell there isn't an issue for me, and my LEAF is QC'd daily since there is a free quick charger a block from my house.
If Nissan decides to offer an update to make these edge case quick charge sessions 10-15 minutes faster, that will be fine, but it is not the end of the world if they don't.
Agree with Sage on this.SageBrush said:If that was the "logic" they would issue a TSB, aka voluntary fix.OrientExpress said:DaveinOlyWA said:rumor has it RapidGate fix for European market only because North American Market did not complain enough.
The US won't be receiving the European fix, mainly because Nissan has the charging data for all of the US fleet, and found that only a very small minority of 2018 cars that are part of the affected universe fast charge more than once a day, and they also have all of the service information for the same universe, and none to just a few customers ever brought their cars in for service presenting the charging slowdown after multiple charges as an issue. The logic is why spend time, effort and expense to fix something that does not seem to be broken.
That is the excuse. I'll bet the reason is that the fix in non-cool climates is a BAD IDEA
Yeah. That's most of my hypothesis.OrientExpress said:I think what you are saying is that the cost of increased battery warranty claims, and more folks being pissed that Nissan changed something that would have a detrimental affect on the car outweighs a handful of folks that believe they are entitled to this change.
Interesting theory.
cwerdna said:Yeah. That's most of my hypothesis.OrientExpress said:I think what you are saying is that the cost of increased battery warranty claims, and more folks being pissed that Nissan changed something that would have a detrimental affect on the car outweighs a handful of folks that believe they are entitled to this change.
Interesting theory.
It's possible that allowing for increased DC FCing rate might push more batteries into reaching 8 bars before the 8 year/100K capacity warranty expires in the US and that effect might be more widespread in the US than Europe --> increased Nissan warranty costs. That'd be a reason for Nissan to say no in the US.
And, most US '18+ Leafers may be unaware of rapid gate, hence the low complaints. And, again, even those that do know not might not bother spending/wasting their time (prior to this update news) complaining to Nissan only to be told this is "by design" (what what earlier Nissan statements basically said). I would've been in this boat if I had an '18. I suspect Nissan will see a spike in complaints as word spreads.
And, those who complained to just dealer might've also gotten a "by design" response that never bubbled its way up to Nissan corporate.
Yeah, you're right about the cost. At minimum, there's dealer tech labor time that would need to be reimbursed by Nissan corporate. There'd be other ancillary costs like writing and localizing the TSB, training EV helpline staff and validating the change (presumably that's all done).
There are abut 7800-8000 2019 LEAFs that were produced in the US that have the "A" rev BMS software with the more conservative quick charging profile that is slower by design.Unaware? Yes. Low complaints? Nooooo
Survey posts on Facebook from last Summer. Tons of complaints but the focus was pushed away from RapidGate by "us"
Thankfully the silver lining from all of this brouhaha is that Nissan did recalibrate the charging profiles as a rolling production change for later '18 and '19 LEAFs, but to expect it to be retrofitted is stretching it.
OrientExpress said:There are abut 7800-8000 2019 LEAFs that were produced in the US that have the "A" rev BMS software with the more conservative quick charging profile that is slower by design.
10-15 vocal individuals on social media expressing their outrage is hardly a "ton" of the affected universe. Even if it was 50, that's less than 1% that feel that they are inconvenienced by spending a half an hour to an hour charging in a multiple charge session day.
Would they like to see the charging go faster? Of course they would, but at the end of the day, it's just not that big of a deal for the majority of owners. Calling in to Nissan Customer Care? Go for it, but remember, they are just the messenger. And believe me when I say the decision makers at Nissan know all about the global outrage on social media, and that factored into their decision.
This is not a safety issue, and so Nissan is effectively off the regulatory hook. To make it an even steeper hill, none of the few that have been vocal have been able to articulate what the problem is other than occasionally it takes longer than other times to fully recharge. So from a business point of view, it is pretty clear why Nissan has been reluctant to invest in a program, even though it could be done. Lots of things can be done, many aren’t because there is not a compelling argument to do so.
A great example of not having an argument is when Nissan gets service complaints about the car behaving exactly how should. TexasLeaf's story about his car going into reduced power mode when the battery got too hot (which by the way is exactly what the LEAF and every other BEV does when their batteries exceed a heat threshold) is a good example. That sort of indignation is not covered by any warranty, but is good for several eye-rolls by the phone agent on the other side of the call and is felony grounds for a stern dose of RTFM.
So, having tantrums on social media isn't going to work, and complaining to the Nissan customer care about a problem that is only a problem from the owners POV, does not carry much weight. Lawsuit threats will get you cut off immediately (OK sue me MF, <click>).
But what will work is a compelling argument that is both a winner for the you and a winner for Nissan. Essentially it's a dollars and cents issue that needs to be solved. No one has been able to show enough impact to justify the cost, plus it doesn't break anything if it isn't done.
Develop that argument and you're golden. You will have done a great service for the owners of the 8000 LEAFs, and will go down in history as one of the greatest owner-advocates that the LEAF community has ever had.
Thankfully the silver lining from all of this brouhaha is that Nissan did recalibrate the charging profiles as a rolling production change for later '18 and '19 LEAFs, but to expect it to be retrofitted is stretching it.
But quite frankly as an owner of one of the affected LEAFs, which is the car we drive for 98% of our local and long distance travel, I wouldn't mind a faster fast charge, but it's OK with me if nothing is changed if the reason was that it will help keep my cars battery in good shape longer.
I see it as a "nice to have, but my world isn't going to collapse if I don't get it" issue, and it appears that the other 99%+ of the other owners seem to agree.
Peace
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