Battery Upgrades are very possible

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Ideally the fan would be with thermometer and actuator to either route air to or from cabin or outside depending on what you need. Cold battery and warm cabin, take cabin air. Battery at 120F, pull in outside air. Battery at 70F and outside at 0F, no fan....etc.

Actually I have wondered if a small airscoop on the bottom of the car to pull air over the battery (with actuator to close in winter) would effectively solve the small remaining hot battery long long trip issue.
 
I think we can safely say cooling the battery from the outside isn't going to cut it.
Add a fan on the inside and force that air between the modules and along the case may yield a slight improvement by speeding up heat transfer since dumping ice down the fuse access hole in the floor on top of fuse access cover area of the battery seems to help.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
Ideally the fan would be with thermometer and actuator to either route air to or from cabin or outside depending on what you need. Cold battery and warm cabin, take cabin air. Battery at 120F, pull in outside air. Battery at 70F and outside at 0F, no fan....etc.

Actually I have wondered if a small airscoop on the bottom of the car to pull air over the battery (with actuator to close in winter) would effectively solve the small remaining hot battery long long trip issue.

Yeah that would be the ultimate. Simply a system that has two outlets. One to the atmosphere, the other back into the car. Adjustable Thermostat control. Turn on when batt temps hit 90º... It would be an interesting contest in Summer between A/C and battery (A/C will have ambient solar to fight as well) Not sure Summer will improve a ton.

Winter would be a different story. Keeping pack cool and warming passengers would be great. We have had cold weather and even with defrost on 61º (one degree up from lowest) and fan speed of one, its still rather warm. Since set point is so low compared to cabin temp, the low fan seems to have an effect of just warming the front of car only.

Power output is still high for a time so not sure if its more efficient or not?
 
Just a cool story to share, I helped a very remote customer perform a battery upgrade. The customer was very technically capable, so 3d-printed CAN conversion plugs were used to maximize his profit.

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He even got a Nissan Consult3+ capable shop to do the actual battery swap! Then he did the final touch with installing the CAN-bridge.
 
Dala: What kind of impression do you think your previous post is likely to make on the average Leaf owner who is thinking about some kind of battery pack upgrade -- positive or negative?
 
@Mike, you should start a new thread with your data and experience to make it easy for the average owner interested in purchasing a new battery to find.

This thread of 29 pages and ~300 useless posts won't be read by many folks--it is old and stale like most of this site, but with your good data embedded here and will soon be nearly impossible to find.

btw i thought your question to Dala kinda strange, so what is your opinion of his post--positive or negative?
 
nlspace: I'm suggesting that he needs to work on providing a lot more detail (atogether with pros and cons analysis) if he wants people like myself to even begin considering this particular bridge approach to upgrading.
 
But.... why? If you want to upgrade your main battery, live in Finland near Vaasa or are willing to travel there and if you can afford the price, you get a battery swap. Thing just works, you get warranty, if anything goes wrong, Dala fixes it.

If you live in or near the Netherlands and want the same and/or an extender battery and/or three phase charging, you come to me and it gets done. Something goes wrong, we fix it.

You need no technical knowledge as a customer to enjoy the product. You never need to do anything that requires technical knowledge of the inner workings of this stuff. You'd only need that if you're trying to figure something out yourself or are working on setting up shop to do this yourself.
 
mux: My main objection was the external placement of the bridge device as opposed to internally under the dash, if I'm understanding the image correctly, so firstly there is much more concern about adequate protection from weather. Also secondly the "average Leaf owner" (i.e. not living near the Netherlands or Finland) who may want to use one of your bridge devices probably has to be able to make updates to it in addition to installing it, so that process needs to be fairly easy for them, don't you agree? So I was puzzled as to what advantages this external bridge had and was trying to prompt for more information -- sorry I was admittedly way too unclear!

I have been watching your videos with interest which obviously provide a good bit of detail which I appreciate, so keep it up!
 
MikeD said:
mux: My main objection was the external placement of the bridge device as opposed to internally under the dash, if I'm understanding the image correctly

No you aren't, in the picture you see a splice in the cable, with the loom going into the car. The bridge is actually mounted inside the cabin. I would never suggest mounting this hardware outside the cabin.
 
Dala: I was under the mistaken impression that the only re-wiring necessary was under the dash -- away from high voltage. If I recall correctly the dash rewiring is only for the 2011-12 Leafs -- please say if that is not correct.
 
For all model years of Leaf, all low-voltage wiring modifications are inside the passenger compartment of the car. The electronics we supply are not weatherproofed, although this is possible in principle.

The main reason for doing it this way, apart from arguably the weatherproofing aspect, is to make sure customers can easily either swap our MITM electronics or do firmware upgrades on them. There's a USB port that facilitates it, as well as a PDI programming port. Considering we are rolling out new firmware versions every few weeks right now, and will likely not stop updating and upgrading functionality for the forseeable future, this is a very important function.

In the gen1 Leaf (2010-13), there is no convenient place to put a connectorized splice, so you basically HAVE to physically cut the CAN wires to splice in our electronics. In gen2 and gen3 (2013-17), there is a convenient connector. Then in gen4 and 5 (2017+), it's cutting and splicing again.
 
The dominant strategy in this industry, at least in the realms of the US and Britain, is to have a company that either provides refurbished whole batteries from Nissan or completely re-engineers the battery and BMS and HVAC such that a larger, newer, thermally managed pack can be installed in the same volume but not necessarily in the same case. Doing it on your own is too selfish - your work on your own car is effectively a dead end - and you could make substantially more profit (enterprise-wise or cash-wise, pick one) by sharing your efforts and protecting yourself via the additional engineers, safety, insurance, and testing facilities that a company can ordinarily afford.

The really dominant strategy is to be Tesla, and skip all the faffing about with crappy uncooled batteries and frog-shaped cars, but that spot's already been taken.
 
It's not really necessary to be particularly big or make lots of money in this business, though. Our mission is to keep the old EV generation driving around - they're mechanically fine, all they need is a few small updates to be usable for another decade. A few hundred customers is all we need to be a profitable business, serve our customers personally and provide a decent product they can enjoy at a reasonable price. That's it. We don't need to be Tesla, we don't even need to be Nissan, we can just be muxsan. With that particular type of scale, some types of development are just out of the question.

And this isn't new by any stretch of the imagination. We're on an industrial estate with literally dozens of custom car shops, serving maybe a dozen customers a year with their weird and wonderful requests. This is just car modding, it's a niche.

The companies that attempt to make a reworked battery are doomed, in my opinion. Not because it's a technically bad approach, but because you just can't get to the kind of scale that makes this affordable for people to consider. Blue cars and Phoenix have tried, with hundreds of thousands of dollars of subsidies, to make a replacement battery and made maybe one or two prototypes. Prototypes that are essentially unsellable because they don't solve the core issue (the thermal management - they have practically none either) and they need to make thousands to get even the steel shell down to the price we sell our entire batteries for, let alone to get a decent battery contract. Keep in mind that even at full production, we only use about 20MWh of batteries per year. Samsung SDI won't even talk to us at that volume. ETC gives us **** prices.

And even then, if you can find 10.000 interested Leaf owners worldwide, you still have to homologate the battery in all those countries, a process that takes years and needs active involvement of Nissan, a company that on multiple occasions has explicitly said they will not support this car anymore for even the most minor of modifications like tow bars or roof racks. You'll be well into 2022 if you started this process now.

I've said this before on this forum: there is a lot of theorizing and wishful thinking in the EV community that someday, maybe, somebody will come around and make their fantasy a reality. Their technically perfect product, maybe even their hare-brained idea, could just work if only a large company would invest the time and money into it that it deserves. Battery trailers, trunk batteries, extra chargers, boattails, we've all seen the projects and ideas repeated a dozen times. It has been 9 years since the first Leafs came out. Where are all these companies making these great products at scale at an affordable price? Maybe, just maybe, these are actually niche products best served by niche companies.
 
mux said:
It's not really necessary to be particularly big or make lots of money in this business, though. Our mission is to keep the old EV generation driving around - they're mechanically fine, all they need is a few small updates to be usable for another decade. A few hundred customers is all we need to be a profitable business, serve our customers personally and provide a decent product they can enjoy at a reasonable price. That's it. We don't need to be Tesla, we don't even need to be Nissan, we can just be muxsan. With that particular type of scale, some types of development are just out of the question.

And this isn't new by any stretch of the imagination. We're on an industrial estate with literally dozens of custom car shops, serving maybe a dozen customers a year with their weird and wonderful requests. This is just car modding, it's a niche.

The companies that attempt to make a reworked battery are doomed, in my opinion. Not because it's a technically bad approach, but because you just can't get to the kind of scale that makes this affordable for people to consider. Blue cars and Phoenix have tried, with hundreds of thousands of dollars of subsidies, to make a replacement battery and made maybe one or two prototypes. Prototypes that are essentially unsellable because they don't solve the core issue (the thermal management - they have practically none either) and they need to make thousands to get even the steel shell down to the price we sell our entire batteries for, let alone to get a decent battery contract. Keep in mind that even at full production, we only use about 20MWh of batteries per year. Samsung SDI won't even talk to us at that volume. ETC gives us **** prices.

And even then, if you can find 10.000 interested Leaf owners worldwide, you still have to homologate the battery in all those countries, a process that takes years and needs active involvement of Nissan, a company that on multiple occasions has explicitly said they will not support this car anymore for even the most minor of modifications like tow bars or roof racks. You'll be well into 2022 if you started this process now.

I've said this before on this forum: there is a lot of theorizing and wishful thinking in the EV community that someday, maybe, somebody will come around and make their fantasy a reality. Their technically perfect product, maybe even their hare-brained idea, could just work if only a large company would invest the time and money into it that it deserves. Battery trailers, trunk batteries, extra chargers, boattails, we've all seen the projects and ideas repeated a dozen times. It has been 9 years since the first Leafs came out. Where are all these companies making these great products at scale at an affordable price? Maybe, just maybe, these are actually niche products best served by niche companies.

mux

If I could give a "Thumbs UP" on here for your post, I would. I commend you for trying to fill the niche that I really so want someone to fill. That niche is to save what otherwise is such a great car. I personally love my leaf. My wife and I drive it in comfort for 90% of our everyday needs. I would say that the group you are working to help is the group with folks like myself who can't stand for something good to go to waste when it could be fixed! It seems to me the most earth conscious and sustainable car is the one that doesn't have to even be built so if I can get many more years out this car it serves that purpose. So kudos to you!

Now how can I buy your extender here in the USA?
 
mux said:
The companies that attempt to make a reworked battery are doomed, in my opinion. Not because it's a technically bad approach, but because you just can't get to the kind of scale that makes this affordable for people to consider. Blue cars and Phoenix have tried, with hundreds of thousands of dollars of subsidies, to make a replacement battery and made maybe one or two prototypes. Prototypes that are essentially unsellable because they don't solve the core issue (the thermal management - they have practically none either) and they need to make thousands to get even the steel shell down to the price we sell our entire batteries for, let alone to get a decent battery contract. Keep in mind that even at full production, we only use about 20MWh of batteries per year. Samsung SDI won't even talk to us at that volume. ETC gives us **** prices.

I agree. I have always believed the most practical solution will use as much of the original battery and case as possible.
The only way anyone would have a chance at being able to build a ground up battery that solves all the problems would be if they were already in the business of making such batteries.
 
mux said:
It's not really necessary to be particularly big or make lots of money in this business, though. Our mission is to keep the old EV generation driving around - they're mechanically fine, all they need is a few small updates to be usable for another decade. A few hundred customers is all we need to be a profitable business, serve our customers personally and provide a decent product they can enjoy at a reasonable price. That's it. We don't need to be Tesla, we don't even need to be Nissan, we can just be muxsan. With that particular type of scale, some types of development are just out of the question.

And this isn't new by any stretch of the imagination. We're on an industrial estate with literally dozens of custom car shops, serving maybe a dozen customers a year with their weird and wonderful requests. This is just car modding, it's a niche.

The companies that attempt to make a reworked battery are doomed, in my opinion. Not because it's a technically bad approach, but because you just can't get to the kind of scale that makes this affordable for people to consider. Blue cars and Phoenix have tried, with hundreds of thousands of dollars of subsidies, to make a replacement battery and made maybe one or two prototypes. Prototypes that are essentially unsellable because they don't solve the core issue (the thermal management - they have practically none either) and they need to make thousands to get even the steel shell down to the price we sell our entire batteries for, let alone to get a decent battery contract. Keep in mind that even at full production, we only use about 20MWh of batteries per year. Samsung SDI won't even talk to us at that volume. ETC gives us **** prices.

And even then, if you can find 10.000 interested Leaf owners worldwide, you still have to homologate the battery in all those countries, a process that takes years and needs active involvement of Nissan, a company that on multiple occasions has explicitly said they will not support this car anymore for even the most minor of modifications like tow bars or roof racks. You'll be well into 2022 if you started this process now.

I've said this before on this forum: there is a lot of theorizing and wishful thinking in the EV community that someday, maybe, somebody will come around and make their fantasy a reality. Their technically perfect product, maybe even their hare-brained idea, could just work if only a large company would invest the time and money into it that it deserves. Battery trailers, trunk batteries, extra chargers, boattails, we've all seen the projects and ideas repeated a dozen times. It has been 9 years since the first Leafs came out. Where are all these companies making these great products at scale at an affordable price? Maybe, just maybe, these are actually niche products best served by niche companies.

Great reply! There's just no economic justification for spinning up a battery+TMS production line when the price ceiling is so low and you're competing against salvaged new-ish batteries. To be clear, Tesla could almost certainly start up a secondary production line (5,000/year?) at their Gigafactory for modules adding up to a liquid-cooled 40-60 kWh Leaf pack. It's just that they have essentially no incentive to do all that engineering when the marginal revenue for a new Model 3 pack is so much higher despite the costs being essentially the same.

... you just can't get to the kind of scale that makes this affordable...

This was essentially my point, but I could have indicated the capital difference between the two dominant strategies. One requires $30m funding, the other requires maybe $30k. Designing a new thermally managed pack is so expensive (and the fixed costs of production are so ridiculously high) that you have no other option than to capture essentially the entire secondary Leaf battery market. If you fail to do so, your company will die. That's the bit about needing to be huge or needing to be Tesla - how do you start up a business selling re-engineered Leaf batteries (to the tiny subset of Leaf owners attached to their cars, let's get real) when your competition is the Model 3?
 
@Daklein

I've followed your 62kWh conversion on this forum. Impressive. Respect!
I'm thinking about a similar project but are concerned about the reduced ground clearance.

What is your experience from the lower ground clearance? From your pictures it looks to be at risk of scratching even the most gentle speed bump...

Did you consider any type of suspension lift spacers? [mod: link removed from first post by author]

Did you mount the pack as high as possible, or is there some space above it?
 
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