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California, allies ready for emission-law war with Trump EPA, CARB head says
- Thread starter GRA
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GRA
Well-known member
ABG:
Not a surprise that DoJ realized they didn't have a leg to stand on.
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/08/trump-administration-ends-automaker-california-antitrust-probe/U.S. ends antitrust probe of 4 automakers over California emissions deal
Ford, Honda, Volkswagen and BMW weren't found to have violated any laws
. . . The Justice Department's investigation, which started last fall, had aimed to determine whether antitrust laws were violated by Ford, Honda, Volkswagen and BMW in reaching the July deal with California. Under the deal, the automakers planned to comply with pollution and related mileage requirements established by California that are tougher than the federal standards sought by President Donald Trump. . . .
The Justice Department didn't find conduct violating the law and has closed the investigation, a person familiar with the matter told The Associated Press on Friday. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak publicly.
In September, the administration revoked California's authority to set auto mileage standards, asserting that only the federal government has the power to regulate greenhouse gas emissions and fuel economy. Top California officials and environmental groups took legal action to stop the rollback.
Democrats accused the administration of using antitrust powers to target political opponents with the investigation. A top Justice Department official defended the probe before Congress and denied any political motivation or influence from the White House.
California Gov. Gavin Newsom, a Democrat, said Friday that the Justice Department's “trumped-up charges were always a sham — a blatant attempt by the Trump administration to prevent more automakers from joining California and agreeing to stronger emissions standards."
Newsom called the closing of the probe “a big loss for the president and his weaponization of federal agencies. . . ."
Not a surprise that DoJ realized they didn't have a leg to stand on.
GRA
Well-known member
As expected, the EPA finalized the reduction to 1.5% annually, down from 5%. Ladies and gentlemen, start your suits!
Meanwhile, ABG reports Volvo is in talks with California to join the four other companies (Ford, Honda, VW, BMW) that have agreed to meet the state's standards.
Meanwhile, ABG reports Volvo is in talks with California to join the four other companies (Ford, Honda, VW, BMW) that have agreed to meet the state's standards.
I have heard that the sky's around LA have been very clear lately.
So it's definitely the personally owned vehicles creating the smog.
Since tractor trailers are definitely still running, factories are still manufacturing, diesel trains still going, all agricultural activities are still going on. The only thing that has changed is the cars.
The state is better off just forcing people to buy electrics, since a half century of building ever cleaner cars has only marginally cleaned the air and still earns them a top spot on the list for worst air quality in the nation.
So it's definitely the personally owned vehicles creating the smog.
Since tractor trailers are definitely still running, factories are still manufacturing, diesel trains still going, all agricultural activities are still going on. The only thing that has changed is the cars.
The state is better off just forcing people to buy electrics, since a half century of building ever cleaner cars has only marginally cleaned the air and still earns them a top spot on the list for worst air quality in the nation.
GRA
Well-known member
Oilpan4 said:I have heard that the sky's around LA have been very clear lately.
So it's definitely the personally owned vehicles creating the smog.
Since tractor trailers are definitely still running, factories are still manufacturing, diesel trains still going, all agricultural activities are still going on. The only thing that has changed is the cars.
The state is better off just forcing people to buy electrics, since a half century of building ever cleaner cars has only marginally cleaned the air and still earns them a top spot on the list for worst air quality in the nation.
Actually, far fewer trucks are running due to reduced demand, many factories are shut down including at least one oil refinery, ag has crops rotting due to lack of labor and market, public transit agencies are seeing ridership drops of 95% or more and have cut back service accordingly, shipping traffic is likewise impacted, air traffic has essentially stopped, and most important of all it was rainy and windy most of the month, which is the single biggest factor in better air quality.
All of the above, in addition to cars, has been responsible for the improved air quality, here and everywhere else.
What's being harvested in late April other than hay and animal feed?
If crops were being left in the field to rot we would be in trouble, well I wouldn't, at least not for a while.
Why did the trump administration suspend federal truck driver hour limitations for the first time in history if trucks aren't moving?
Some oil refineries I can see being shutdown since most states are seeing a reduction in driving of 40 to 50% Monday through Friday and 60% to 75% reduction on weekends.
Less public transit rolling coal in the city is good.
How does air travel smog up the cities?
If crops were being left in the field to rot we would be in trouble, well I wouldn't, at least not for a while.
Why did the trump administration suspend federal truck driver hour limitations for the first time in history if trucks aren't moving?
Some oil refineries I can see being shutdown since most states are seeing a reduction in driving of 40 to 50% Monday through Friday and 60% to 75% reduction on weekends.
Less public transit rolling coal in the city is good.
How does air travel smog up the cities?
What's being harvested in late April other than hay and animal feed?
If crops were being left in the field to rot we would be in trouble, well I wouldn't, at least not for a while.
https://calmatters.org/california-divide/2020/04/california-farmers-coronavirus-food-supply-food-bank/
For many farmers, it’s more cost-effective to let crops rot in the fields. They can’t afford to harvest it if there is no market for it, and food banks can’t cover the full cost of labor.
So lettuce? If you consider that food.
Well if you have steers or knows someone near by with steers they can be released onto the lettuce field. Convert lettuce to beef for a little bit more flexible shelf life.
I don't know any one that considers milk a crop. I do know the cheese producers, condensed and powder milk producers are running as much milk as possible through those plants.
They're doing pretty good since milk is almost free right now and those products greatly extend the usable life of milk.
Well if you have steers or knows someone near by with steers they can be released onto the lettuce field. Convert lettuce to beef for a little bit more flexible shelf life.
I don't know any one that considers milk a crop. I do know the cheese producers, condensed and powder milk producers are running as much milk as possible through those plants.
They're doing pretty good since milk is almost free right now and those products greatly extend the usable life of milk.
This is why some people have you on Ignore. Why not just admit that you were mistaken?
powersurge
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:What's being harvested in late April other than hay and animal feed?
If crops were being left in the field to rot we would be in trouble, well I wouldn't, at least not for a while.
https://calmatters.org/california-divide/2020/04/california-farmers-coronavirus-food-supply-food-bank/
For many farmers, it’s more cost-effective to let crops rot in the fields. They can’t afford to harvest it if there is no market for it, and food banks can’t cover the full cost of labor.
This shows the ridiculousness of politicians.... They love to show how we send $10 per person lunches to hospital staff (a warm and fuzzy publicity stunt), and are pushing to spend billions in actual $$$ as hand outs, even to illegals
There IS A MARKET FOR ALL THIS. There is no slowing of the economy of the same number of people in the country that need to continue to eat..
So who is going to suffer if the farmers let crops rot and milk and animal products are being poured down the drain..?? We are... When in a month or two we will exhaust the easy to obtain food in supermarkets and there will be no long-term sustainable food highway into the homes of Americans. We will be fighting over a head of lettuce and a loaf of bread in the supermarkets..
Politicians cannot think of the idea to subsidize the growing of food and animal products to feed the hungry people of the country.... Asses they are...
PS - The hell with the "emission war". Think of keeping the country alive.
The problem is that those systems are human labor intensive. It isn't a lack of funding (except that farm and meat packing workers are very underpaid with few or no benefits), it's a system that requires large numbers of people working in close quarters.
powersurge
Well-known member
And with all of our technology we cannot think of a safe way to cut and pack meat?
Also, Do they think we are stupid by telling us that food gathering in the fields is "dangerous"? I always thought that plant harvesting was highly mechanized and I cannot believe that some harvesting workers cannot stay safely away from other workers in the giant fields////
You have to think that this full-country "shut down" is commanded by politicians that just want to look good in the name of ULTIMATE SAFETY..
Why don't they spend their time planning the smartest ways to keep our country going in each individual industry and business...
For example. Why couldn't they open all the large stores and businesses - with a limit of a certain number of people in the store at any time and have people wait outside in line until people in the store leave.
Also, large stores with a very large inner volume with high ceilings (like Costco, Target, Dick's etc) open and have their air conditioning on full blast to circulate fresh air> If everyone used masks and gloves there would be no problem and people could lead a more normal life and less unemployment.
Also, Do they think we are stupid by telling us that food gathering in the fields is "dangerous"? I always thought that plant harvesting was highly mechanized and I cannot believe that some harvesting workers cannot stay safely away from other workers in the giant fields////
You have to think that this full-country "shut down" is commanded by politicians that just want to look good in the name of ULTIMATE SAFETY..
Why don't they spend their time planning the smartest ways to keep our country going in each individual industry and business...
For example. Why couldn't they open all the large stores and businesses - with a limit of a certain number of people in the store at any time and have people wait outside in line until people in the store leave.
Also, large stores with a very large inner volume with high ceilings (like Costco, Target, Dick's etc) open and have their air conditioning on full blast to circulate fresh air> If everyone used masks and gloves there would be no problem and people could lead a more normal life and less unemployment.
WetEV
Well-known member
The emission war is keeping the country alive.powersurge said:PS - The hell with the "emission war". Think of keeping the country alive.
Lower air pollution seems to make the coronavirus less deadly. As does lower smoking rates.
https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pmA small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in the COVID-19 death rate. Despite inherent limitations of to the ecological study design, our results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available so our analyses can be updated routinely.
Yet another reason to quit smoking. Cleaner air is better for living things, like you and me.
http://www.tobaccoinduceddiseases.org/COVID-19-and-smoking-A-systematic-review-of-the-evidence,119324,0,2.htmlHowever, from their published data we can calculate that the smokers were 1.4 times more likely (RR=1.4, 95% CI: 0.98–2.00) to have severe symptoms of COVID-19 and approximately 2.4 times more likely to be admitted to an ICU, need mechanical ventilation or die compared to non-smokers (RR=2.4, 95% CI: 1.43–4.04).
WetEV
Well-known member
powersurge said:And with all of our technology we cannot think of a safe way to cut and pack meat?
Probably.
But it will take time, and a steak might cost $0.01 more.
GRA
Well-known member
Oilpan4 said:What's being harvested in late April other than hay and animal feed?
If crops were being left in the field to rot we would be in trouble, well I wouldn't, at least not for a while.
Why did the trump administration suspend federal truck driver hour limitations for the first time in history if trucks aren't moving?
Some oil refineries I can see being shutdown since most states are seeing a reduction in driving of 40 to 50% Monday through Friday and 60% to 75% reduction on weekends.
Less public transit rolling coal in the city is good.
Which is why California is putting so much emphasis on replacing diesel buses and trucks with ZEVs.
How does air travel smog up the cities?
Seriously? Aircraft don't spend all their time at altitude - they burn a lot of fuel on the ground and while climbing and descending, and as much of the latter two take place below the top of any inversion layer, it adds to the smog concentration. What do you think Jet A is, water? Then there's all the ground servicing vehicles, fuel and catering trucks, a/c tractors etc., all of which are diesel-powered.
The food issue has already been answered. Almost forgot, emissions from trucks, ships and planes in California are apparently all down about 20%. You'll note that the driver hours suspension is supposed to only apply for essential loads, food, medical supplies, soap/hand sanitizer etc. Oh, truckers also tend to check most of the demographic boxes that put them at higher risk from Covid-19: they're typically older and more likely to be overweight/obese, have high blood pressure, respiratory issues/smoke, etc.
Meanwhile, California has refused to suspend its requirement that all trucks being (re-)registered in state meet our truck emissions standards, which means a lot of older trucks lacking the necessary pollution controls can no longer be registered here.
I hear the 2 nearest meat packers here have great benefits packages, but the pay sucks and you will likely get laid off for a week or 2 some time between thanksgiving and new years most years.
Sounds like if they really want clean air then they should close the air ports and force people to buy electric cars.
They have known what causes smog for about 70 years, tried to fix it for around 50, now they know what it takes to eliminate smog and I bet they still won't do it.
We can use the influx of cheap newer tractor trailers out here in new mexico.
Sounds like if they really want clean air then they should close the air ports and force people to buy electric cars.
They have known what causes smog for about 70 years, tried to fix it for around 50, now they know what it takes to eliminate smog and I bet they still won't do it.
We can use the influx of cheap newer tractor trailers out here in new mexico.
powersurge said:Also, large stores with a very large inner volume with high ceilings (like Costco, Target, Dick's etc) open and have their air conditioning on full blast to circulate fresh air> If everyone used masks and gloves there would be no problem and people could lead a more normal life and less unemployment.
That can be done very easy, I have done it before.
Most of those roof top package units just need to have a panel removed and they will suck in 80% to 100% fresh air.
Increasing the air mix rate, even with 80% fresh air, isn't going to solve the problem of droplet aerosol contagion. There need to be exhaust-only blowers running, with intakes near head height.
GRA
Well-known member
Oilpan4 said:<Snip>
Sounds like if they really want clean air then they should close the air ports and force people to buy electric cars.
They have known what causes smog for about 70 years, tried to fix it for around 50, now they know what it takes to eliminate smog and I bet they still won't do it.
Of course we know how to eliminate smog - stop burning fossil fuels, and wood too FTM - wood fires and use of fireplaces are banned on "Spare the Air" days, which are called any time weather conditions are such that an inversion is likely. The difficulty is doing all that without bringing an industrial civilization to a halt while making the transition, and doing so at a price that can be afforded while maintaining essentially the same standard of living.
We can use the influx of cheap newer tractor trailers out here in new mexico.
Only if your definition of new is "no more recent than 2010", which I believe is the current cut-off date. We _have_ temporarily suspended discussion of the next round of tightening the regs, which will move the date up to a more recent year/ level of required emission controls.
We can use the influx of cheap newer tractor trailers out here in new mexico.
I believe that he's referring to new trucks with old, more polluting engine designs that were banned (?) under Obama.
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