Battery Upgrades are very possible

Alozzy;

That's really fascinating about the slightly larger tires being more accurate!

So given that:

"The discharge rate of each cell should be lower in a 62 kWh pack vs a 40 kWh pack, so that should mean less heat. Also, on average the depth of discharge should be lower with the larger pack. Although that's a secondary factor to pack degradation (with ambient temperature being the dominant one), it's still significant."

Would I thus expect less than .042 degradation on the 62 KWh? That sounds like good news.

My next challenge will be to not fully charge the battery.

So how are you digging the 1 1/4 hitch?

jbsocdelica said:

In short, I suspect at some point, I'll need a rear spring part # for a 2011 Leaf after upgrading to 62kw.

Longer story: I am in the process of having my 2011 Leaf (Beige interior) upgraded to 62kw

Click to expand...

jbsocdelica said:

$7500 62kw battery
$1300 installation
...
Their pricing ranges from 11 to 12k (and for the moment, is only available for 2013-2017 models to get to 62 KW).

For '11 and '12 they do upgrade from 24kw to 30 and 40kw for 5k and 9k respectively.

Click to expand...

jbsocdelica said:

So, I calculated the Leaf 2011 with 64 KW would come in at about 173lb less than then the Leaf 2019 Extended (see previous post).
...
If you kept your tires stock, remind me your concerns about the additional 22kw?

Also there maybe one more reason for 64 kw upgrade that I just thought of. Most 62 kw

Click to expand...

jbsocdelica said:

This is worth pondering: 2011 Leaf with 62 kw + just over 250 lb extra weight or...

...
64 kw weight: 410 kg (904 lb)
24 kw weight: 294 kg (648 lbs

Difference 116 kg (256 lb)

4) Difference after upgrade: Nissan Leaf 2019 (4751) - Nissan Leaf 2011 with 64 kw (4322 + 256) 4578 : difference 173lb / 78 kg)

Even though you're leaning to 40kw, I highly recommend that you think once more about going the 62kw for those reasons, and

Click to expand...

Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not "kw".

Since you've made the same error in multiple posts including after I pointed it out two days ago (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=595985#p595985), are you aware of the difference?

cwerdna said:

Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not "kw".

Since you've made the same error in multiple posts including after I pointed it out two days ago (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=595985#p595985), are you aware of the difference?

Click to expand...

There are probably 100 million adults in the US alone who wouldn't know nor understand the difference (nor likely care).

I would venture to guess that my wife and sister, who both drive a LEAF, wouldn't know the difference either. If I bothered to explain it to them, they would either go glassy eyed, or forget a couple of days later anyways.

Why do you let this bother you so much? You're fighting a loosing battle...

alozzy said:

cwerdna said:

Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not "kw".

Since you've made the same error in multiple posts including after I pointed it out two days ago (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=595985#p595985), are you aware of the difference?

Click to expand...

There are probably 100 million adults in the US alone who wouldn't know nor understand the difference (nor likely care).

I would venture to guess that my wife and sister, who both drive a LEAF, wouldn't know the difference either. If I bothered to explain it to them, they would either go glassy eyed, or forget a couple of days later anyways.

Why do you let this bother you so much? You're fighting a loosing battle...

Click to expand...

That's fine about your first point, but I always like places I'm on to be exchanging correct information. Let's make sure EV enthusiasts can at least use the proper units and terminology. After all, if we can't get it right, can we expect everyone else to? How about bad information being perpetuated by people who should know better? We should try to stop that.

When/if it comes time to talk about charging speed vs battery capacity or energy? See below for example of the confusion and useless discussion it can cause.
When Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter didn't even work on the Model 3 (and didn't work until ~July 2019), someone (K-MTG) who didn't know WTF they were talking about somehow got their own post deleted. I and someone else quoted their reply for clarification: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/anyone-tested-s-x-chademo-adapter-on-model-3.104109/#post-2470307.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=564743#p564743 has a pointer to a total cluster@$%#$%. What's scary is what someone else observed about Reeler at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=564998#p564998. :shock:

jbsocdelica said:

... Would I thus expect less than .042 degradation on the 62 KWh? That sounds like good news.

My next challenge will be to not fully charge the battery.

So how are you digging the 1 1/4 hitch?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you derived that .042 figure from, but I think it would be hard to quantify anyways - there are so many variables. I think it's safe to say that pack degradation should be slower, due to the lower discharge rate per cell (40 kWh pack has 192 cells, 62 kWh pack has 288 cells). My understanding is that the 192 cells pack has 96 cells in series (3.6v x 96 = 346v nominal, about 394v max) as does the 288 cell pack.

So, there are (2) parallel groups (96 x 2 = 192) in a 40 kWh pack and (3) parallel groups (96 x 3=288) in a 62 kWh pack. All other things being equal, there should be less internal resistance and less heat per cell, for a given power output.

The 1-1/4" hitch Curt hitch I bought works great!

@cwerdna I appreciate what you are saying, you're definitely preaching to the converted here

I just feel like it's mission impossible...

@cwerdna -- Thanks so much for pointing out my error in KW vs. kWh.

That's what were here for, learning. Keep it coming, and can't wait to learn more about your EV journey! Your role as an educator is really important for folks like me who are excited the EV possibilities and are still learning the 'speak.'

Mahalo

Alozzy;

Glad the hitch is working out, couldn't decide between 1 1/4 vs. 2 inch initially especially as the former is so much cheaper than the latter. For you it is for bicycle hitch? I splurged thinking it might be a little better for heavier stuff, but I wonder if it's overkill.

How is your EV journey going?

And, pretty cool to get the education of kw vs. kWh (there will be a lot of that here for me, I'm sure and appreciative)

also

"I'm not sure what you derived that .042 figure from, but I think it would be hard to quantify anyways - there are so many variables. I think it's safe to say that pack degradation should be slower, due to the lower discharge rate per cell (40 kWh pack has 192 cells, 62 kWh pack has 288 cells). My understanding is that the 192 cells pack has 96 cells in series (3.6v x 96 = 346v nominal, about 394v max) as does the 288 cell pack.

So, there are (2) parallel groups (96 x 2 = 192) in a 40 kWh pack and (3) parallel groups (96 x 3=288) in a 62 kWh pack. All other things being equal, there should be less internal resistance and less heat per cell, for a given power output."

I can see there be any number of variables too in terms of discharge. I guess all (most?) of us Leafers up to this point have to deal with the lack of a liquid cooled battery. Wonder about the combustion issues across platforms and where Leaf stands in the crowd?

There have been anecdotes that the larger LEAF batteries degrade slower than the smaller versions, and the notion that a bigger battery will generate less heat because it operates at a lower C rate is just physics. On the flip side though, tight packaging is expected to increase thermal resistance so it is not a slam dunk how the bigger battery life overall will fare.

But for any LEAF battery size , a warm climate is going to be tough on LEAF batteries and a hot climate is a recipe for a short lived LEAF battery.

alozzy said:

cwerdna said:

Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not "kw".

Since you've made the same error in multiple posts including after I pointed it out two days ago (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=595985#p595985), are you aware of the difference?

Click to expand...

There are probably 100 million adults in the US alone who wouldn't know nor understand the difference (nor likely care).

I would venture to guess that my wife and sister, who both drive a LEAF, wouldn't know the difference either. If I bothered to explain it to them, they would either go glassy eyed, or forget a couple of days later anyways.

Why do you let this bother you so much? You're fighting a loosing battle...

Click to expand...

Has to be the lamest defense of ignorance I have read in years.

On another note; I question your desire to have a more accurate speedometer (something most cars don't have) over sacrificing odometer accuracy? Cause you can't have both

jbsocdelica said:

Sounds like if you got the 40kWh and your starting range was 170, then after ten years you would probably be about the 100 mile mark which could meet your goals.

Click to expand...

Definitely...and I hope to keep my Leaf another 10 years (already had it for 10).

jbsocdelica said:

If you kept your tires stock, remind me your concerns about the additional 22 kWh?

Also there maybe one more reason for 64 kWh upgrade that I just thought of. Most 62 kWh batteries will be less than 1 year old and have little mileage on them / down time. I wonder what the probabilities are of you getting a hold of a fresh 40 kWh battery?

Click to expand...

That's really the trick: finding a "good" battery pack (no matter what the size). I've seen a few 40 kWh packs pop-up around Tennessee (we all know that's where Nissan builds their US packs), and who's to say that Nissan won't make packs available down the road (they seem to coalescing around 40 kWh on the bottom end)? While the price may not be good, we know they will be "fresh". Of course, this may ultimately be a "service" (with a fee) by whomever does the battery swap.
I also use Michelin Defenders (on my second set actually), but the bottom line is: I just don't want to mess with the additional ground clearance issues.

Stanton, Alozzy and SageBrush;

When one does decide to a 'salvage' yard battery, Dala has laid out a really cool tool for assessing the battery SOH on the palette, pre-install!

See for example:

1)
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=30475

and

2)

https://github.com/dalathegreat/Nissan-Leaf-Battery-to-OBD2

From what I'm gleaning through the forum, interesting equation wise, what brings forth demise (meaning not total demise) sooner:

a. less kWh (i.e. 40 kWh vs. 62 kWh) so lower capacity uses up more full pack more 'regularly' thus heating more and wearing out the pack.

b. more densely packed (i.e. 62 kWh vs. 40 kWh), less heat dissipation in the higher kWh

c. and of course lack of cooling system, regardless up to this point

So I was checking costs for the 40 kWh battery; and for some weird reason it's selling for the same price that I bought my 62 kWh last month! And I also bought mine from Tennessee. Now I understand probably why that's the case (location), as the batteries are built there.

That's a good point about 40kWh being their future 'low go to battery', so that would mean for the time being (4 + years?) they'll be some fresh ones.

I'll pull up an image of the serial number of my 62 kWh when time provides so that as users we have ever the more data.

Took a 75 mile drive today (sometime quite quick on the 405, 'fast' lane much of the time), again with surf racks (no board on there at moment) and Thule hitch carrier. Had quite a few guestimate miles left (158). I recall with surfboard on Leaf (my other 2011), my mileage was shredded. So the rack will be used for local surf trips at slower speeds.

Aloha!


And I wonder how soon, my total cost for my project

$7500 62KwH battery
$1300 installation

$8800 (U.S.) or €7200 (Euro)

will drop much more!

I honestly don't know how you lucked out finding a 62 kWh pack at that price.

DaveinOlyWA said:

alozzy said:

cwerdna said:

Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not "kw".

Since you've made the same error in multiple posts including after I pointed it out two days ago (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=595985#p595985), are you aware of the difference?

Click to expand...

There are probably 100 million adults in the US alone who wouldn't know nor understand the difference (nor likely care).

I would venture to guess that my wife and sister, who both drive a LEAF, wouldn't know the difference either. If I bothered to explain it to them, they would either go glassy eyed, or forget a couple of days later anyways.

Why do you let this bother you so much? You're fighting a loosing battle...

Click to expand...

Has to be the lamest defense of ignorance I have read in years.

On another note; I question your desire to have a more accurate speedometer (something most cars don't have) over sacrificing odometer accuracy? Cause you can't have both

Click to expand...

Typical pompous, brash, abrasive response from you whenever you take issue with someone.

I can't be bothered arguing with you, it's easier to tune you out using the Foe feature, which I've not used in almost 4 years of visiting these forums.

DaveinOlyWA said:

On another note; I question your desire to have a more accurate speedometer (something most cars don't have) over sacrificing odometer accuracy? Cause you can't have both

Click to expand...

First, why in the world would you stick your sniveling nose into his preference ?
Second, if ideological litmus tests are your thing, then you will love trumper forums.

Yikes. I know it's a pandemic and all that, but maybe we can turn down the nastiness a bit? I'm talking to several people here, not just one.

jbsocdelica said:

@cwerdna -- Thanks so much for pointing out my error in KW vs. kWh.

That's what were here for, learning. Keep it coming, and can't wait to learn more about your EV journey! Your role as an educator is really important for folks like me who are excited the EV possibilities and are still learning the 'speak.'

Mahalo

Click to expand...

Thank you.

To be clear, kW is a unit of power. kWh is a unit of energy.

If you had a 1000 watt device that ran for 1 hour, it consumed 1000 watt-hours (Wh) or 1 kWh.
1 watt device for 1000 hours? 1000 watt-hours -> 1 kWh

Multiply the units while also multiplying the values.

If you could charge a Leaf at 50 kW for 1 hour --> 50 kWh came out of the charger.

50 kWh / 1 h = 50 kW (the h/h cancels out)

In comparison, we've had some people who were confused and even became ummm.. agitated when people where trying to teach/correct him. See https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=389319#p389319 (has a bunch of incorrect unit usage). He kept making unit errors and decided to make up his own units (mfu) like at https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19890&start=160. Oh well.

Wait a sec, I missed that odo/speed comment.

You can have an accurate odometer AND speed indication. We're doing that right now on a few test cars already. The odometer and dashboard speed indication are completely separate quantities on the CAN bus.

To be clear, kW is a unit of power. kWh is a unit of energy.,,,,,,,,,,,,,

In comparison, we've had some people who were confused and even became ummm.. agitated when people where trying to teach/correct him.

Click to expand...

cwerdna,

You need to let this go. We all know what one means even when Kw vs kWh is used. This is a car forum, not a science or English class. We see people miss-using words all the time but we understand. Some examples are Charger instead of ESEV, “there” vs “their”, “your” instead of “you’re” etc.

You would go crazy on some of the truck forums I frequent, where English sometimes seems like a 2nd language.

Some examples are charger instead of ESEV, “there” vs “their”, “your” instead of “you’re” etc.

Click to expand...

All of which bother me, and I'm not alone. I agree that Cwerdna can be a bit OCD about this particular mistake, but he also has a point: if we can't get the terms right in a forum where technical issues are being discussed, then the value of the conversations is lessened. If it's a newbie posting then we should cut them some slack. If not then a gentle correction isn't so bad...

If you want to see how bad it can get, visit endlessphere.com. That's an EV site where no one cares about these things, and it often reads like a grade school chatroom.