12 Fisker Karmas burn to the ground after NJ Port floods

[RegGuheert]

We used to warn customers that even in a 12 volt AE system, if they dropped a wrench and shorted across the terminals there was enough current available to arc-weld (at least, before the explosion). Can't say I was curious/dumb enough to confirm it directly :lol:

I dropped my 1/2" rachet across the terminals of a car battery when I was a younger man. Fortunately there was no explosion and the terminals were made of lead, allowing me to yank the wrench off before it welded itself permanently. My wrench still bears the scars of that incident, providing me with a frequent reminder of the danger of batteries. I am much more careful when working on the terminals of The batteries in 48V PV systems.

 

[EVDrive]

As others noted, it will be interesting to find out if one car shorted out and started a chain reaction that burned the rest of the cars. They where parked very close together. Gas cars catch on fire frequently, I saw a few burning along the freeway in the last few weeks alone, and what I wonder is what the issue here is. Is it the flammable coolant, faulty electrical systems, the battery or the range extender?

Regardless of the cause, it seems like the Karma is a gorgeous car with questionable real world safety. I wonder if they had built a pure EV if they would be having similar problems or not.

The Karma seems to be working out some rough Karma. Maybe they should change their model and go simpler with a pure EV. The Karma is super complicated machine.

 

[planet4ever]

no no no... the battery PACK can deliver 80 KW because of the heavy duty orange wiring. the battery modules are sealed (or at least they should be) withe the contacts of the batteries providing the only access to chemicals inside. current thru those packs "should" be pretty limited. any short condition should burn up the wire preventing any large discharge of power as long as the integrity of the casing is not compromised.

OK, I'm going to ask a really stupid question which will show how little I know about batteries. Unless I am totally confused, LEAF modules contain two cells wired in parallel, but other than that everything is wired in series. Doesn't that mean 40kW would be traveling through each cell if the pack is under an 80kW load? (Well, if you want to get fussy, each cell would be absorbing and emitting about 1% of the electrons it sees, so only 39.6kW would be passing through.)

That's all right. Go ahead and laugh at me. I can take it. I obviously have a far too mechanistic concept of how a battery works.

Ray

 

[RegGuheert]

OK, I'm going to ask a really stupid question which will show how little I know about batteries. Unless I am totally confused, LEAF modules contain two cells wired in parallel, but other than that everything is wired in series. Doesn't that mean 40kW would be traveling through each cell if the pack is under an 80kW load? (Well, if you want to get fussy, each cell would be absorbing and emitting about 1% of the electrons it sees, so only 39.6kW would be passing through.)

That's all right. Go ahead and laugh at me. I can take it. I obviously have a far too mechanistic concept of how a battery works.

Ray

You're on the right track when you say that all 48 of the modules are wired in series. As a result each of the modules carries the same current as the entire battery. At 80kW load, the current is over 200A, both for the entire battery and for each module. (By way of comparison, our entire house is limited to about 200A and 50kW of power!) But each module only produces about 1/48 of the total voltage and therefore about 1/48 of the total power.

So, yes, each module is certainly capable of starting a fire. But the entire battery is capable of starting a fire in more circumstances and more quickly due to its higher voltage and power capabilities. The good news is that it appears Nissan has done their homework when it comes to LEAF battery safety. As others have pointed out, sealing the battery has distinct advantages in this area.

 

[pythagoras]

According to the LA Times, 3 Toyota Prius on the same NJ lot also caught fire, amongst a couple thousand hybrid Toyotas that were damaged:

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-mo-autos-sandy-hurts-fisker-toyota-20121101,0,2915754.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[ericsf]

We can argue all we want about Nissan's battery design but no active cooling means the pack can be sealed much more effectively and protected from such disaster.

I don't see how Teslas liquid cooling would do much worse sealing-wise.

err... because of all the pipes that need to get in and out of the pack.

 

[EVDrive]

According to the LA Times, 3 Toyota Prius on the same NJ lot also caught fire, amongst a couple thousand hybrid Toyotas that were damaged:

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-mo-autos-sandy-hurts-fisker-toyota-20121101,0,2915754.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good find, I was looking for other stories of cars burning at the port and didn't find any. Makes me feel a tiny bit better that it wasn't only Fisker impacted.

 

[pythagoras]

Fisker and NHTSA have concluded their investigation. Note:
1. Fire started in a single "low voltage control unit" common to many vehicles 12V system.
2. Lithium-ion batteries not at fault.
3. There were no "explosions" as incorrectly reported by Jalopnik.
4. Several other cars in same lot also caught fire, but we never saw sensationalist photos of those.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080276_sandy-flood-fire-followup-fisker-karma-battery-not-at-fault" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing to see here really. Jalopnik and its peers once again won a few page hits at expense of Fisker's reputation :roll:

 

[LEAFer]

It might also be worth noting (summarizing from the article) that the fire started in ONE vehicle and spread to others due to wind.

(Then again, having been submerged in salt water for several hours --- leading to a short circuit and subsequent fire when the 12V system applied power to the circuit -- could easily have happened in more than one vehicle ... at other random intervals. Something to be aware of in these "computers on wheels" ... which really never sleep, or at least wake themselves every 24 hours or more often :shock: )

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

results; another blow to EVs over battery concerns that was groundless but the damage is done. now in the general public I can understand the jumping to conclusions and the fear of the unknown but to have it happen here?

we should know better

 

[tbleakne]

The unusual discharge may have cause the lithium to be exposed to water. Lithium and water combined burn instantly.

Yes, but we are dealing with lithium salts, not necessarily metallic lithium. Anyway, I tried to find references to lithium battery fires due to water submersion, but I couldn't find any. Below is a video showing a pouch cell being severely overcharged, and a study from Sandia Battery Abuse Testing Laboratory (BATLab).

The report appears to be about the risk of thermal runaway, which is a problem for LiCo batteries common in laptops. This risk does not involve water. LiMn is much less sensitive to this problem.

An initiation event similar to the one proposed by garygid could have caused strong local heating that compromised the cell level containment. The containment of the LEAF's batteries is engineered to be strong because contact of the Li ions with water will definitely cause an explosive reaction.

 

[cwerdna]

NY Times: Mystery at Port Newark: Why Did 17 Plug-In Cars Burn?:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/mystery-at-port-newark-why-did-17-plug-in-cars-burn/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;