2012 Ford focus electric vs 2012 nissan leaf?

[LeftieBiker]

Do remember that a thermal management system for a BEV is unneeded in cool areas, marginal value in most places, and important only in hot places.

I leased my 2013 leaf SV on Labor Day weekend of that year. We then saw 13 days above 90 degrees in "cool" upstate NY, with many more in the high 80s. In fact, it was 93F the day I signed the papers and drove the car home. There are plenty of places in "cool" Canada that also see a lot of days (and nights) that are too hot for the Leaf. Relying on general climate conditions to protect EV batteries is foolish in this case.

 

[CRLeafSL]

Well Ok then, maybe it won't be a ford then with steering issues. However, my next EV WILL have TMS on the battery. No exceptions. Unless Nissan decides to put it on the gen 2 (doubt it cause again they are too stupid to do it), my next EV will not be a Nissan.

 

[RegGuheert]

is no thermal mgmt the reason why they can sell a new battery for 5500.

My guess is that Nissan subsidizes the price on the replacement batteries.

why couldnt they just stick with regular ole reliable power steering. no need to reinvent the wheel there.

Well, with an EV, you do not have any constantly-rotating equipment to power the hydraulic pump for "regular ole reliable power steering." If you simply added an electric motor to run such a system, it would be very inefficient. Instead, EVs, and many other modern cars, are moving to electrically-assisted power steering.

Brakes are similar, since there is no built-in source of vacuum for braking assistance. I don't know what the FFE does, but Nissan designed a brand-new system for the LEAF, which has had a few issues. I think they improved it starting in 2013, but I expect it will take a couple more iterations to really get back to the point of "regular ole reliable assisted braking."

Relying on general climate conditions to protect EV batteries is foolish in this case.

Agreed. Still, I feel the best overall solution is not TMS, but rather batteries designed to operate over a wide range of temperatures.

 

[knightmb]

Relying on general climate conditions to protect EV batteries is foolish in this case.

Agreed. Still, I feel the best overall solution is not TMS, but rather batteries designed to operate over a wide range of temperatures.

I agree the battery should be temperature hardy already, but as I've read here, a lot of Leaf owners are doing the cheap handy man route to weatherize their vehicles such as vent blocks for the winter (me included, can keep my battery at 5 bars in even single digit temperatures outside) or the more difficult cooling line installation for summer/hot area driving.

I think Nissan is just trying to drive the "all-temperature-environments" battery development in hopes they hit a sweet spot between cost of production and battery life.

 

[TimLee]

... Complete useless big piece of paperweight in cold climates. ...

But your complaint with the car is winter range.
TMS would not have fixed that, it would have made it worse.

The battery being cold in winter is only a small piece of the winter range reduction.
Adding TMS to keep the battery warm would use more net energy and make the range worse.

 

[TomT]

Not if it was on the EVSE at night to keep the battery warm... That could pay significant dividends...

Adding TMS to keep the battery warm would use more net energy and make the range worse.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Not if it was on the EVSE at night to keep the battery warm... That could pay significant dividends...

Adding TMS to keep the battery warm would use more net energy and make the range worse.

Why doesn't Nissan use the existing battery heater when the car is on the EVSE? They have sensors all over the battery - just keep it at a nice 60F or something when it's plugged in. It seems like this should be doable with a software update, or am I missing something here?

 

[TimLee]

...
Why doesn't Nissan use the existing battery heater when the car is on the EVSE? They have sensors all over the battery - just keep it at a nice 60F or something when it's plugged in. It seems like this should be doable with a software update, or am I missing something here?

They could do that if they had designed for that purpose.
But the cold weather package battery heater is low wattage and outside the metal battery case.
Not sure how uniform the heating is.
Battery has four temperature sensors on 2011 and 2012, and three on 2013 forward battery design.
Probably could revise the software to have a much higher set point while plugged into the EVSE and charging if you wanted to.

But Nissan has not shown much interest in changing software. Not even willing to correct errors in P3227.

Were unwilling to provide heater off switch fix on 2011 and 2012.

Unlikely they will change battery heater software on any existing LEAFs.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

...
Why doesn't Nissan use the existing battery heater when the car is on the EVSE? They have sensors all over the battery - just keep it at a nice 60F or something when it's plugged in. It seems like this should be doable with a software update, or am I missing something here?

They could do that if they had designed for that purpose.
But the cold weather package battery heater is low wattage and outside the metal battery case.
Not sure how uniform the heating is.
Battery has four temperature sensors on 2011 and 2012, and three on 2013 forward battery design.
Probably could revise the software to have a much higher set point while plugged into the EVSE and charging if you wanted to.

But Nissan has not shown much interest in changing software. Not even willing to correct errors in P3227.

Were unwilling to provide heater off switch fix on 2011 and 2012.

Unlikely they will change battery heater software on any existing LEAFs.

Sad but true. These companies are at a point where they could/should be maintaining the software on their preexisting fleet of cars. Yet one more thing that seemingly only Tesla understands.

Part of me wants to try an aftermarket solution. I know others have done so. I just don't have enough desire to take on yet another project for something with minimal returns.

Back to the original topic, how is Ford about updating/maintaining software? Do they actually provide updates for existing cars or are they no better than Nissan?

 

[eloder]

I would totally 100% disagree with anyone that says a TMS is only needed in warm/hot areas. That is total BS. In my opinion, ALL electric cars should have a TMS controlling the battery temperature in hot or cold climates. The extra cost in such system is so worth it. I made the mistake leasing a leaf for two years and am counting the days till this thing goes back. Complete useless big piece of paperweight in cold climates. Air cooled battery is a COMPLETE JOKE. I will never, ever in my life look at another EV that has an air cooled battery no matter where I live. Go with the FFE that was smarter than Nissan and put a TMS on their battery. Nissan should have too, but was too stupid and still is too stupid to do it. I'm done with Nissan probably forever.

I agree.

I don't own a Leaf now (I might in the future), but people who think that the Leaf degradation is acceptable should look at other EVs. Smart car EVs have many people clocking degradation at <1-2% a year (both the last generation and the current one) in hot climates as well in Canada. People opting for smart's version of their 10 year unlimited mile extended battery warranty+lease are eligible for full battery replacements as soon as its capacity hits 88% or less.

Tesla degradation is similarly nearly non-existent, and those EVs can actually put substantial mileage on the odometer.

 

[cwstnsko]

Lots of good perspective here already.
As a Focus Electric driver and a follower of all forums focus electric related, I can tell you that the false Stop Safely Now bug has been resolved with a software upgrade. The few people that have gotten this message since the upgrade have actual hardware issues that need to be repaired.
The current generation Infotainment (Microsoft based) does receive occasional software updates which are downloaded to a thumb drive and inserted into the USB socket to load. Now that Ford has announced that the next generation of Infotainment will use a different OS (QNX, I believe) the future updates will likely be non-existent

One factor that has not been mentioned that would be driving the current (short term) value of a used FFE is that Ford recently shutdown the Focus line to do a model year changeover and the FFE has just started being built for the 1st time in months. The lack of supply combined with the big price cut Ford made last year to clear out the 2014s has resulted in almost no inventory of FFEs in the entire country. They are not exactly in high demand, but new ones will be a bit scarce for a few more months.

 

[CRLeafSL]

... Complete useless big piece of paperweight in cold climates. ...

But your complaint with the car is winter range.
TMS would not have fixed that, it would have made it worse.

The battery being cold in winter is only a small piece of the winter range reduction.
Adding TMS to keep the battery warm would use more net energy and make the range worse.

I also 100% disagree with this statement. It would be so easy for Nissan to add the battery into the existing cooling loop that cools the Motor, Inverter, and Charger. Guess what, during charging this loop is active. Now add heat to that fluid and you can charge while heating the battery. Also remember that nice function called Carwings that you can Remote start climate control, or even better set a timer for if plugged in? You guessed it you could warm your battery while it's still plugged into shore power. I'm no engineer and I came up with these solutions in matter of minutes. Now what's Nissan's problem? Granted if the car is unplugged then it would use power to heat or cool the battery but I still see more benefit for doing this than have no climate control over the battery at all. I disagree that TMS would make winter range worse, it would make it Much better.

 

[knightmb]

...
Why doesn't Nissan use the existing battery heater when the car is on the EVSE? They have sensors all over the battery - just keep it at a nice 60F or something when it's plugged in. It seems like this should be doable with a software update, or am I missing something here?

They could do that if they had designed for that purpose.
But the cold weather package battery heater is low wattage and outside the metal battery case.
Not sure how uniform the heating is.
Battery has four temperature sensors on 2011 and 2012, and three on 2013 forward battery design.
Probably could revise the software to have a much higher set point while plugged into the EVSE and charging if you wanted to.

But Nissan has not shown much interest in changing software. Not even willing to correct errors in P3227.

Were unwilling to provide heater off switch fix on 2011 and 2012.

Unlikely they will change battery heater software on any existing LEAFs.

If the heater can warm the battery from -20 to -10 then just being physics, there is no reason the same heater could not warm the battery to 0 or 10,20, etc. Unless they put some type of thermistor in the heater to just shut it off at -10, I see no reason why the software could not easily warm the battery up. I do agree though, it is certainly within their power (they hack the software to allow people to attempt world record backwards driving speeds), then changing a simple hex value in the code from (-10 shut off) to (+50 shut off) shouldn't be that hard. Heck, probably a software hack could do that. Either there is a physical barrier (like a thermistor) or just one of those things that don't get the attention of the Leaf software coders or better *management* of those coders.

One thing to keep in mind, even a simple software change like that would require a lot of re-certification of the code. It's very different for Autos than say your typical desktop as they have to certify the change isn't going to kill anyone, catch the car on fire, kill some other unknown thing, etc.

 

[TimLee]

... or just one of those things that don't get the attention of the Leaf software coders or better *management* of those coders.

One thing to keep in mind, even a simple software change like that would require a lot of re-certification of the code. It's very different for Autos than say your typical desktop as they have to certify the change isn't going to kill anyone, catch the car on fire, kill some other unknown thing, etc.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :lol:
Best tongue in cheek comment on MNL in a long time :!:
*management* of those coders :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

But you are correct on why Nissan management is almost completely unwilling to revise software.
All risks, no "short term" reward.

 

[finman100]

yep all those Nissan engineers must know crap compared to those who just drive it. No compromises out here. No constraints to what is possible. But those engineers no doubt have LOTS of compromises to bring ideas to the real world. Damn those physical laws (and economic ones!) that preclude us from having it all. it's NEVER a no-brainer.

Overall it seems the Leaf is good with more improvements needed. Trade-offs are the name of the game or you lose market share. Let's see where Ford's EV market share goes from here with the Focus EV. Apparently, the Leaf isn't going to be alone in the EV world as there will be choices...ALL with compromises.

Curt

 

[knightmb]

yep all those Nissan engineers must know crap compared to those who just drive it. No compromises out here. No constraints to what is possible. But those engineers no doubt have LOTS of compromises to bring ideas to the real world. Damn those physical laws (and economic ones!) that preclude us from having it all. it's NEVER a no-brainer.

I agree, for all we know running the battery heater above -10 might catch something on fire. I do wish there was some internal source for Nissan posting here so at least when these questions come up, someone deep inside can chime "oh yeah, we wanted to solve X problem but would result in Y issues and Z cost was too much to fix", etc.

 

[jstack6]

I have both EVs. The Focus EV battery is holding up very well where the LEAF loses capacity at about 10% a year here in HOT Phoenix.
On the other hand the heating /Air Cond uses 3 to 4 times more energy in the FFE vs the efficient LEAF.

If QC is available and important to you go for a car with QC which FORD does not have yet.

Over all I'd go with the FFE , I love the battery holding up and it could last 20 years since I have not lost any capacity in 2 years and 16 K miles. I park in the Heat all the time.

 

[knightmb]

I have both EVs. The Focus EV battery is holding up very well where the LEAF loses capacity at about 10% a year here in HOT Phoenix.
On the other hand the heating /Air Cond uses 3 to 4 times more energy in the FFE vs the efficient LEAF.

If QC is available and important to you go for a car with QC which FORD does not have yet.

Over all I'd go with the FFE , I love the battery holding up and it could last 20 years since I have not lost any capacity in 2 years and 16 K miles. I park in the Heat all the time.

Does the Focus EV actually cool the batteries when not in use (say you park at the office at 9am and leave by 5pm so the vehicle is baking all day in the heat) or only when you drive? I have not read anything that states if the battery temperature management system functions this way when off or only when driving?

 

[cwerdna]

I also 100% disagree with this statement. It would be so easy for Nissan to add the battery into the existing cooling loop that cools the Motor, Inverter, and Charger. Guess what, during charging this loop is active. Now add heat to that fluid and you can charge while heating the battery
...
I'm no engineer and I came up with these solutions in matter of minutes.

The bolded part is your problem.

So what about coolant loop? The devil's in the details. There's a bunch more complexity. You need to cool/heat all the cells and do it relatively evenly, across all cells. See below, for example along w/the complexity of the Volt's system.

http://media.gm.com/product/public/us/en/FuelEfficiency/home/intro.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Feb/0214_battery.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://articles.sae.org/9506/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://gm-volt.com/2010/12/09/the-chevrolet-volt-coolingheating-systems-explained/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, the e-NV200 van (introduced years after the Leaf) has some forced air cooling/heating of the battery: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1092763_nissan-e-nv200-electric-van-battery-adds-thermal-conditioning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Not clear how effective this is and how uniform this approach is.

 

[mbender]

I'm no engineer and I came up with these solutions in matter of minutes.

The bolded part is your problem.

So what about coolant loop? The devil's in the details. There's a bunch more complexity.

I equate this to someone new to football (e.g.) asking, "Why don't they just call the touchdown play every time?" ;-)

However, the e-NV200 van (introduced years after the Leaf) has some forced air cooling/heating of the battery: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1092763_nissan-e-nv200-electric-van-battery-adds-thermal-conditioning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Not clear how effective this is and how uniform this approach is.

When is that e-NV200 coming to the states, anyhow??