2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

[LeftieBiker]

Most people who buy reliable cars like a Camry or Accord do not have the same experience you did.

It depends on the year. I don't know of any bad years for the Accord, but the Camry had several, including as recently as 2007. Our '95 Camry LE four was a well-engineered, reliable car, but the fuel system developed issues well before 140,000 miles, and took several tries to get fixed. (It also had terribly noisy anti-sway bar bushings.) The Volvo 850 was a good example of trying too hard to redesign everything at once, with the original automatic transmission coming sealed (!) for the first couple of years, prompting early failures, and the cylinder head oil passages being a bit too small for non-synthetic oil. Even the later ones weren't extremely reliable, just rugged. We've owned several of those iconic "run forever" cars, from Volvo 140 and 240 series, through a Civic Si I had for 23 years (the windshield leaked from year three on), to that Camry. I don't miss them now.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Gas cars present none of these issues and they are cheaper.

Gas cars are cheaper if gas is free. Otherwise, you have to crunch the numbers on 'cheaper'. For me, with the gas I'd use, its cheaper to have an EV and change the battery every few years. You'll have to run your own numbers based on your mileage and economy, but for many EV owners, EV is cheaper.

For us the LEAF's higher insurance cost alone ate up any savings on fuel.

If I was shopping for low cost reliable transportation Volvo, Mercedes and Jeep would be about the last places I'd look. Let's not forget too the LEAF is far from immune to costly failures in things other than the battery.

 

[SageBrush]

Why on earth would you think the consumer is a moron because Nissan screwed up big time with these 30 kwh batteries?

I don't.
You would know that if you read my post for comprehension, but that is probably a 'science project' for you.

 

[SageBrush]

For us the LEAF's higher insurance cost alone ate up any savings on fuel.

Don't blame the LEAF. I pay ~ $15 a month for a $1M policy, about the same as my Honda Fit premium.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

This really deserves a thread of its own... :lol:

Not only... do you have to get a replacement pack

you also have to make sure you get the right one!

and THEN, (here comes the hard part) convince the dealership you got a

24 KILOWATT REPLACEMENT FOR YOUR 30 KWH LEAF! :shock:

This is a must read!

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/11/what-happens-when-all-your-stuff-looks.html

 

[rcm4453]

Why on earth would you think the consumer is a moron because Nissan screwed up big time with these 30 kwh batteries?

I don't.
You would know that if you read my post for comprehension, but that is probably a 'science project' for you.

Wow you are delusional!

Too bad you can't comprehend the clear point I was making! Only a moron like yourself thinks it's normal to have to use charge timers every day to compensate for a poorly designed battery!

 

[ironmanco]

I don't.
You would know that if you read my post for comprehension, but that is probably a 'science project' for you.

Wow you are delusional!

Too bad you can't comprehend the clear point I was making! Only a moron like yourself thinks it's normal to have to use charge timers every day to compensate for a poorly designed battery!

I would say we're all morons for one reason or another as it relates to the Leaf. We all (most likely) bought one...didn't we ;-)

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

For us the LEAF's higher insurance cost alone ate up any savings on fuel.

Don't blame the LEAF. I pay ~ $15 a month for a $1M policy, about the same as my Honda Fit premium.

I don't blame the LEAF in general for high insurance rates, but it cost substantially more to insure than an ICE. That can be attributed to high repair costs and high probability that a lesser impact will result in a total loss.

The reason your insurance is cheap is because you live in Colorado, but seriously, you only pay $180/year for car insurance? There are a lot of uninsured illegals and scammers here that drive the cost way up. There are personal injury attorney billboards all over the place promising vast riches. Some places like Miami it's insane, my agent says he has customers paying nearly $1000/month.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

For us the LEAF's higher insurance cost alone ate up any savings on fuel.

Don't blame the LEAF. I pay ~ $15 a month for a $1M policy, about the same as my Honda Fit premium.

I don't blame the LEAF in general for high insurance rates, but it cost substantially more to insure than an ICE. That can be attributed to high repair costs and high probability that a lesser impact will result in a total loss.

The reason your insurance is cheap is because you live in Colorado, but seriously, you only pay $180/year for car insurance? There are a lot of uninsured illegals and scammers here that drive the cost way up. There are personal injury attorney billboards all over the place promising vast riches. Some places like Miami it's insane, my agent says he has customers paying nearly $1000/month.

yeah, must be nice. I pay more than $15 a month for nothing but liability on my Corolla.

 

[rcm4453]

Most people who buy reliable cars like a Camry or Accord do not have the same experience you did.

It depends on the year. I don't know of any bad years for the Accord, but the Camry had several, including as recently as 2007. Our '95 Camry LE four was a well-engineered, reliable car, but the fuel system developed issues well before 140,000 miles, and took several tries to get fixed. (It also had terribly noisy anti-sway bar bushings.) The Volvo 850 was a good example of trying too hard to redesign everything at once, with the original automatic transmission coming sealed (!) for the first couple of years, prompting early failures, and the cylinder head oil passages being a bit too small for non-synthetic oil. Even the later ones weren't extremely reliable, just rugged. We've owned several of those iconic "run forever" cars, from Volvo 140 and 240 series, through a Civic Si I had for 23 years (the windshield leaked from year three on), to that Camry. I don't miss them now.

The keyword there was "most" I didn't say "all"

How many miles did you get on that '95 Camry before you needed to replace a $6,000 part?

Did you lose substantial range on a full tank of gas after having your Camry for only 1.5 - 2 years?

You see....no compassion as even a bad Camry can make it past 100k miles without needing a $6,000 replacement part!

Can't say that for a 30 kwh Leaf! This only means one thing......EPIC FAIL for Nissan!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Most people who buy reliable cars like a Camry or Accord do not have the same experience you did.

It depends on the year. I don't know of any bad years for the Accord, but the Camry had several, including as recently as 2007. Our '95 Camry LE four was a well-engineered, reliable car, but the fuel system developed issues well before 140,000 miles, and took several tries to get fixed. (It also had terribly noisy anti-sway bar bushings.) The Volvo 850 was a good example of trying too hard to redesign everything at once, with the original automatic transmission coming sealed (!) for the first couple of years, prompting early failures, and the cylinder head oil passages being a bit too small for non-synthetic oil. Even the later ones weren't extremely reliable, just rugged. We've owned several of those iconic "run forever" cars, from Volvo 140 and 240 series, through a Civic Si I had for 23 years (the windshield leaked from year three on), to that Camry. I don't miss them now.

The keyword there was "most" I didn't say "all"

How many miles did you get on that '95 Camry before you needed to replace a $6,000 part?

Did you lose substantial range on a full tank of gas after having your Camry for only 1.5 - 2 years?

You see....no compassion as even a bad Camry can make it past 100k miles without needing a $6,000 replacement part!

Can't say that for a 30 kwh Leaf! This only means one thing......EPIC FAIL for Nissan!

If referring to the LEAF; The answer would be 100,000 miles or 8 years, which ever comes first...

 

[SageBrush]

but seriously, you only pay $180/year for car insurance?

I checked my policy to be sure.

$177 a year for the car, and an extra $10 a year for a rider to my uninsured motorist. My other cars are in the same ballpark
"illegals" would probably bump up the cost of UM, but not the other parts of insurance.

Regardless though, my main point is that in my experience the LEAF does not carry a premium to insure.

 

[rcm4453]

It depends on the year. I don't know of any bad years for the Accord, but the Camry had several, including as recently as 2007. Our '95 Camry LE four was a well-engineered, reliable car, but the fuel system developed issues well before 140,000 miles, and took several tries to get fixed. (It also had terribly noisy anti-sway bar bushings.) The Volvo 850 was a good example of trying too hard to redesign everything at once, with the original automatic transmission coming sealed (!) for the first couple of years, prompting early failures, and the cylinder head oil passages being a bit too small for non-synthetic oil. Even the later ones weren't extremely reliable, just rugged. We've owned several of those iconic "run forever" cars, from Volvo 140 and 240 series, through a Civic Si I had for 23 years (the windshield leaked from year three on), to that Camry. I don't miss them now.

The keyword there was "most" I didn't say "all"

How many miles did you get on that '95 Camry before you needed to replace a $6,000 part?

Did you lose substantial range on a full tank of gas after having your Camry for only 1.5 - 2 years?

You see....no compassion as even a bad Camry can make it past 100k miles without needing a $6,000 replacement part!

Can't say that for a 30 kwh Leaf! This only means one thing......EPIC FAIL for Nissan!

If referring to the LEAF; The answer would be 100,000 miles or 8 years, which ever comes first...

That's beside the point, I'm not talking about a warranty now am I?

The point is the original battery SHOULD last at least 100k miles without needing to be replaced, it doesn't!

Just because something can be replaced under warranty doesn't mean it's not a faulty/bad part!

 

[ironmanco]

$177 a year for the car, and an extra $10 a year for uninsured motorist. My other cars are in the same ballpark

I live in colorado as well and I'm not even close to that with my leaf. My '95 sub isn't even close to that.

 

[SageBrush]

$177 a year for the car, and an extra $10 a year for uninsured motorist. My other cars are in the same ballpark

I live in colorado as well and I'm not even close to that with my leaf. My '95 sub isn't even close to that.

If you care and have a good driving record, it sounds like you should go shopping.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

but seriously, you only pay $180/year for car insurance?

I checked my policy to be sure.

$177 a year for the car, and an extra $10 a year for a rider to my uninsured motorist. My other cars are in the same ballpark
"illegals" would probably bump up the cost of UM, but not the other parts of insurance.

So that's it? Bodily injury liability, property damage liability, comprehensive, collision, and UIM all for $187/month? That's incredible. $1500/year per car here easily with a flawless record and no claims.

 

[SageBrush]

but seriously, you only pay $180/year for car insurance?

I checked my policy to be sure.

$177 a year for the car, and an extra $10 a year for a rider to my uninsured motorist. My other cars are in the same ballpark
"illegals" would probably bump up the cost of UM, but not the other parts of insurance.

So that's it? Bodily injury liability, property damage liability, comprehensive, collision, and UIM all for $187/month? That's incredible. $1500/year per car here easily with a flawless record and no claims.

No
$177 for 1M bodily injury liability, 300k property damage liability
$10 for UM rider

My 2017 Prius Prime has the same coverages for about the same cost, AND
another $112 a year for Comp w/ a $5k deductible
and $30 a year for the UM policy. I've been told that Colorado sets the UM rates

If it is not yet obvious ...
I self insure my car Comp up to the first 5k of value, and defer collision.
Since the LEAF is not worth much more than $5k, no Comp coverage
This was actually one of the reasons I chose to buy a used LEAF rather than a heavily discounted 2017 model: cheaper , and more tolerance for minor dents. The other money reason was cheaper taxes.

 

[ironmanco]

No
$177 for 1M bodily injury liability, 300k property damage liability
$10 for UM rider

My 2017 Prius Prime has the same coverages for about the same cost, AND
another $112 a year for Comp w/ a $5k deductible
and $30 a year for the UM policy. I've been told that Colorado sets the UM rates

If it is not yet obvious ...
I self insure my car Comp up to the first 5k of value, and defer collision.
Since the LEAF is not worth much more than $5k, no Comp coverage
This was actually one of the reasons I chose to buy a used LEAF rather than a heavily discounted 2017 model: cheaper , and more tolerance for minor dents. The other money reason was cheaper taxes.

Ah, ok. That explains a lot. I'm not willing to assume that level of risk. From my experience and where I live it's not a good risk. Not to mention that having full glass (thus having comp) almost pays for itself every year.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

No
$177 for 1M bodily injury liability, 300k property damage liability
$10 for UM rider

My 2017 Prius Prime has the same coverages for about the same cost, AND
another $112 a year for Comp w/ a $5k deductible
and $30 a year for the UM policy. I've been told that Colorado sets the UM rates

If it is not yet obvious ...
I self insure my car Comp up to the first 5k of value, and defer collision.
Since the LEAF is not worth much more than $5k, no Comp coverage
This was actually one of the reasons I chose to buy a used LEAF rather than a heavily discounted 2017 model: cheaper , and more tolerance for minor dents. The other money reason was cheaper taxes.

Colorado is a magical place, beautiful landscapes, outdoor activities, and wicked cheap insurance. It's about four times that here just for the liability. Do they shoot PIAs at the state line? :lol:

Self insuring the collision risk certainly saves you. It doesn't hurt that older LEAFs are nearly worthless so either a) you can feel comfortable taking that risk or b) the insurance company can take that risk affordably because if it collides with anything bigger than a shopping cart they'll just total it, and write you a check for the paltry sum an old LEAF commands. Of course that doesn't work for newer cars or anything financed or leased.

 

[SageBrush]

No
$177 for 1M bodily injury liability, 300k property damage liability
$10 for UM rider

My 2017 Prius Prime has the same coverages for about the same cost, AND
another $112 a year for Comp w/ a $5k deductible
and $30 a year for the UM policy. I've been told that Colorado sets the UM rates

If it is not yet obvious ...
I self insure my car Comp up to the first 5k of value, and defer collision.
Since the LEAF is not worth much more than $5k, no Comp coverage
This was actually one of the reasons I chose to buy a used LEAF rather than a heavily discounted 2017 model: cheaper , and more tolerance for minor dents. The other money reason was cheaper taxes.

Ah, ok. That explains a lot. I'm not willing to assume that level of risk. From my experience and where I live it's not a good risk. Not to mention that having full glass (thus having comp) almost pays for itself every year.

Repair costs vary a lot. I'll estimate that through insurance it is about 2-4x what someone like me pays. What is someone like me ?

1. I had to replace a windshield on a Prius v(agon). I shopped around and found a company that charged $250 with Toyota glass
2. I had to replace the front bumper on the same car. I paid $88 for the part on Ebay and $145 to have it painted. Since removal and installation was easy I did that part myself.

These repair amounts are below the deductibles that most people accept to avoid sky high premiums. In my 30 odd years of driving I have yet to incur a cost higher than a typical low deductible. Through the years I have saved about $30k in premiums and paid around $1k out of pocket. My behavior is not for everyone, of course. For one, I am a careful, defensive driver and I avoid distractions while driving. E.g., I do not text or talk on a phone while driving, I do not speed, and I do not engage in risky driving behavior. Second, I have slightly better than poor DIY skills and a willingness to spend the time and effort required to try and sort things out myself. Lastly, I buy cars I can replace with savings if need be.

Insurance at its best diffuses low probability /expensive risk, but in today's society it encourages people to buy more than they can afford to lose. In turn these same people turn to insurance for every dent, scratch and scrape and do not care about the repair cost because "insurance is paying for it." The result are high premiums unless at least partial self insurance is accepted because the usual policy has become an out-of-control pay-ahead scheme with expenses and profit paid to the insurance company.

It is a lousy cycle to be stuck in unless you are the insurance company. That reminds me ... I insure with a company that does not accept drivers with poor records.