2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

[johnlocke]

If you have to worry about when to charge and how long to leave it charged before using it, you have greatly diminished it's usability.

Setting the timer on our LEAF for an early AM charge has not diminished the car utility to me in the slightest.

We occasionally charge at other times. That requires a button push. :shock: :roll:

If you only drive short distances then it probably isn't an inconvenience for you. But consider someone who has a moderate commute of 20-25 mi one way. By the time they get home they're down to 40-50% battery capacity. If they decide to go somewhere later that evening, it had better be close. Or more likely, they plugged in as soon as they got home and now have more than enough for the evening.

I sometimes have to make two 55-60 mi round trips in a day. Doesn't happen often but enough that I habitually charge as soon as I get home. I understand that leaving the battery fully charged for long periods isn't good for it but 8-12 hours shouldn't be problematic. Even a day or two ought not cause a problem. If it does, then the problem is with the battery, not the owner. If charging stations were as common as gas stations then I could keep the battery charge down. That's not the case where I live though, so I need a full charge before I leave the house and also why I waited for the 30 KWH battery. While there are several charging stations available to me, quite often they're occupied and in use and I don't have time to wait for one to open up.

Think about the last time you found your ICE with the tank on empty because someone forgot to get gas. Remember the feeling of "Do I have enough gas left to make it to the station?" If you have to worry about something that makes it inconvenient. The more inconvenient it is, the less usable it becomes. Most people simply can't be bothered to set up or use a charge timer. It's hard enough to get them used to the idea that they need to plug in the car every night. Trying to get them to figure out how to set the charge timer and how long to charge to get to just 80 or 90% without overcharging is nearly impossible. NIssan nixed the 80% charge feature for political reasons and it probably won't return.

 

[SageBrush]

Most people simply can't be bothered to set up or use a charge timer. It's hard enough to get them used to the idea that they need to plug in the car every night. Trying to get them to figure out how to set the charge timer and how long to charge to get to just 80 or 90% without overcharging is nearly impossible.

As I said earlier -- morons. Lazy, entitiled, morons. After all, we *are* talking about a division problem here. They could even use their fingers to figure it out.

As for your other point, how many LEAF owners do not own a second car that can be called upon for the unusual middle of the night ride ?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Johnlocke you need to understand Dr. Sagebrush is the smartest person in the room. If only he wasn't surrounded by so many stupid people and trapped by a red state insurgency in Colorado he could soar like an eagle, on the wings of $187 car insurance.

 

[SageBrush]

Johnlocke you need to understand Dr. Sagebrush is the smartest person in the room. If only he wasn't surrounded by so many stupid people and trapped by a red state insurgency in Colorado he could soar like an eagle, on the wings of $187 car insurance.

No lack of people smarter than me, although nary a Trump-tard among them. Obviously

 

[lorenfb]

1. I had to replace a windshield on a Prius v(agon). I shopped around and found a company that charged $250 with Toyota glass
2. I had to replace the front bumper on the same car. I paid $88 for the part on Ebay and $145 to have it painted. Since removal and installation was easy I did that part myself.

These repair amounts are below the deductibles that most people accept to avoid sky high premiums. In my 30 odd years of driving I have yet to incur a cost higher than a typical low deductible. Through the years I have saved about $30k in premiums and paid around $1k out of pocket. My behavior is not for everyone, of course. For one, I am a careful, defensive driver and I avoid distractions while driving. E.g., I do not text or talk on a phone while driving, I do not speed, and I do not engage in risky driving behavior. Second, I have slightly better than poor DIY skills and a willingness to spend the time and effort required to try and sort things out myself. Lastly, I buy cars I can replace with savings if need be.

Commendable! Very similar views/approaches to the various aspects of vehicle ownership & operation.

 

[rcm4453]

Most people simply can't be bothered to set up or use a charge timer. It's hard enough to get them used to the idea that they need to plug in the car every night. Trying to get them to figure out how to set the charge timer and how long to charge to get to just 80 or 90% without overcharging is nearly impossible.

As I said earlier -- morons. Lazy, entitiled, morons. After all, we *are* talking about a division problem here. They could even use their fingers to figure it out.

As for your other point, how many LEAF owners do not own a second car that can be called upon for the unusual middle of the night ride ?

As I said earlier apparently you're the moron for not seeing the bigger picture. All these 99.999999% of people you're referring to as being morons, lazy and entitled are smart enough to wait for a BEV that's properly engineered and actually ready for prime time!

The 30 kwh Leaf isn't even close! It's barely good enough for EV enthusiasts like us let alone the mainstream population! You are so far out of touch with the real world if you think people are going to put up with charge timers on their cars!!! :lol:

 

[Oils4AsphaultOnly]

I took the time to check the battery voltage at various states of charge today. Started at 100% charge according to the dash monitor and 394.48 VDC (4.11 VDC per cell) The car is a 2016 30KWH with 72% SOH
charge battery cell
95% 389.44 4.05
90% 385.11 4.01
85% 383.75 4.00
75% 377.56 3.93
18% 346.02 3.60 LBW

The lowest I've ever taken the battery is 6% or just below VLBW That came out to 318 VDC or 3.31 VDC per cell. First it's obvious that battery voltage vs charge is non-linear ( at least according to Nissan's percentage gauge). The second is that there appears to to be little difference between charging to 90% vs 85%. The biggest drop occurs between 100% and 95%. Charging to 90% would look to be a fairly conservative strategy and discharging down to no less than LBW seems to be reasonable.

If possible could someone else do the same thing with their car? I would particularly like to verify the battery voltages for LBW and VLBW. Since these seem to be fixed at 50 GID's and 25 GID's, the voltages may vary depending on SOH.

It took awhile to produce this. Here's my stats (2016 30kwh w/ 92% SOH):
97.6% 394.23V 4.11
95.1% 393.07V 4.09
73.9% 380.75V 3.97
38.1% 354.66V 3.69
27.3% 345.29V 3.60

Sorry, didn't hit LBW (need to charge tonight for 21 mile commute).

Hope the rest helps!

Edit: The percentage charge is reported from LeafSpy, which at the last data point differed from the leaf display by ~8%!!

 

[waikalua]

It's crazy to think I dropped two more bars in that short of a duration.

Sam, you lost bar 3 and 4 in 2 months?

Yep, pretty much. The good news is that the dealer ordered my new battery today and I am hopeful that this battery pack was an anomaly. Still so happy I decided to lease again like my 2013 leaf. Almost bought this one.

Also pretty stoked because they said I can watch the work get done. Something fascinates me about seeing the battery swap done.

Sam I have a 2016 SV that has lost two bars at 15k, I'm kind of freaking out!

Please update us on your experience with the battery replacement, I think I'm going to be going through it soon.

 

[ironmanco]

1. I had to replace a windshield on a Prius v(agon). I shopped around and found a company that charged $250 with Toyota glass
2. I had to replace the front bumper on the same car. I paid $88 for the part on Ebay and $145 to have it painted. Since removal and installation was easy I did that part myself.

These repair amounts are below the deductibles that most people accept to avoid sky high premiums. In my 30 odd years of driving I have yet to incur a cost higher than a typical low deductible. Through the years I have saved about $30k in premiums and paid around $1k out of pocket. My behavior is not for everyone, of course. For one, I am a careful, defensive driver and I avoid distractions while driving. E.g., I do not text or talk on a phone while driving, I do not speed, and I do not engage in risky driving behavior. Second, I have slightly better than poor DIY skills and a willingness to spend the time and effort required to try and sort things out myself. Lastly, I buy cars I can replace with savings if need be.

Insurance at its best diffuses low probability /expensive risk, but in today's society it encourages people to buy more than they can afford to lose. In turn these same people turn to insurance for every dent, scratch and scrape and do not care about the repair cost because "insurance is paying for it." The result are high premiums unless at least partial self insurance is accepted because the usual policy has become an out-of-control pay-ahead scheme with expenses and profit paid to the insurance company.

It is a lousy cycle to be stuck in unless you are the insurance company. That reminds me ... I insure with a company that does not accept drivers with poor records.

We're way off topic here but I'm hoping a diversion will calm folks down a bit from all the name calling and finger pointing.

I wrench on my own cars - electrical, engine, suspension and everything in-between. The sub I've pretty much done just about everything other than rebuild the tranny. When it comes to body work that's where I bring in the pros. I'm a stickler for things looking right and I don't have the tools or the skills to produce results that would return a damaged (3 deer, a tree, 1 coyote, black ice, rear ended, and t-boned by a bike) vehicle back to it's pre-crash condition. That, I'm willing to pay for and have protection (insurance) for.

Everyone's tolerance for the condition of their car is different and I don't like driving around (or having my wife or kids drive) in a vehicle that has clear evidence of either repair or need of repair.

That's just me.

 

[johnlocke]

I took the time to check the battery voltage at various states of charge today. Started at 100% charge according to the dash monitor and 394.48 VDC (4.11 VDC per cell) The car is a 2016 30KWH with 72% SOH
charge battery cell
95% 389.44 4.05
90% 385.11 4.01
85% 383.75 4.00
75% 377.56 3.93
18% 346.02 3.60 LBW

The lowest I've ever taken the battery is 6% or just below VLBW That came out to 318 VDC or 3.31 VDC per cell. First it's obvious that battery voltage vs charge is non-linear ( at least according to Nissan's percentage gauge). The second is that there appears to to be little difference between charging to 90% vs 85%. The biggest drop occurs between 100% and 95%. Charging to 90% would look to be a fairly conservative strategy and discharging down to no less than LBW seems to be reasonable.

If possible could someone else do the same thing with their car? I would particularly like to verify the battery voltages for LBW and VLBW. Since these seem to be fixed at 50 GID's and 25 GID's, the voltages may vary depending on SOH.

It took awhile to produce this. Here's my stats (2016 30kwh w/ 92% SOH):
97.6% 394.23V 4.11
95.1% 393.07V 4.09
73.9% 380.75V 3.97
38.1% 354.66V 3.69
27.3% 345.29V 3.60

Sorry, didn't hit LBW (need to charge tonight for 21 mile commute).

Hope the rest helps!

Edit: The percentage charge is reported from LeafSpy, which at the last data point differed from the leaf display by ~8%!!

Interesting. How much difference is there between the Leaf Spy % and the dash % at various charge levels? If you could, when you get a chance, post the voltage at LBW. Since that's a fixed charge level (50 GID's) it would interesting to know how battery degradation affects that number. I used the dashboard % because it's available even if Leaf Spy isn't running. I normally don't run Leaf Spy except to check on the SOH , AH, and GID's numbers after I charge. I just thought it would be interesting to see what the actual voltage levels were at various states of charge. Why guess if you can get real world numbers!

 

[Oils4AsphaultOnly]

I took the time to check the battery voltage at various states of charge today. Started at 100% charge according to the dash monitor and 394.48 VDC (4.11 VDC per cell) The car is a 2016 30KWH with 72% SOH
charge battery cell
95% 389.44 4.05
90% 385.11 4.01
85% 383.75 4.00
75% 377.56 3.93
18% 346.02 3.60 LBW

The lowest I've ever taken the battery is 6% or just below VLBW That came out to 318 VDC or 3.31 VDC per cell. First it's obvious that battery voltage vs charge is non-linear ( at least according to Nissan's percentage gauge). The second is that there appears to to be little difference between charging to 90% vs 85%. The biggest drop occurs between 100% and 95%. Charging to 90% would look to be a fairly conservative strategy and discharging down to no less than LBW seems to be reasonable.

If possible could someone else do the same thing with their car? I would particularly like to verify the battery voltages for LBW and VLBW. Since these seem to be fixed at 50 GID's and 25 GID's, the voltages may vary depending on SOH.

It took awhile to produce this. Here's my stats (2016 30kwh w/ 92% SOH):
97.6% 394.23V 4.11
95.1% 393.07V 4.09
73.9% 380.75V 3.97
38.1% 354.66V 3.69
27.3% 345.29V 3.60

Sorry, didn't hit LBW (need to charge tonight for 21 mile commute).

Hope the rest helps!

Edit: The percentage charge is reported from LeafSpy, which at the last data point differed from the leaf display by ~8%!!

Interesting. How much difference is there between the Leaf Spy % and the dash % at various charge levels? If you could, when you get a chance, post the voltage at LBW. Since that's a fixed charge level (50 GID's) it would interesting to know how battery degradation affects that number. I used the dashboard % because it's available even if Leaf Spy isn't running. I normally don't run Leaf Spy except to check on the SOH , AH, and GID's numbers after I charge. I just thought it would be interesting to see what the actual voltage levels were at various states of charge. Why guess if you can get real world numbers!

I think LeafSpy is going by voltage? In the above case, 97.6% SOC (329 GIDs) is 100% on the dash, while 27.3% SOC (74 GIDs) was 20% on the dash.

 

[johnlocke]

Most people simply can't be bothered to set up or use a charge timer. It's hard enough to get them used to the idea that they need to plug in the car every night. Trying to get them to figure out how to set the charge timer and how long to charge to get to just 80 or 90% without overcharging is nearly impossible.

As I said earlier -- morons. Lazy, entitiled, morons. After all, we *are* talking about a division problem here. They could even use their fingers to figure it out.

As for your other point, how many LEAF owners do not own a second car that can be called upon for the unusual middle of the night ride ?

In fact I own three other cars and a truck. That doesn't mean I want to drive them instead of the Leaf. How many other people can afford to have extra cars lying around "just in case"? Until you can get by with just an electric car they are never going to be popular. That is the whole point of a Tesla. It's the only car you NEED to do everything most people do with a car. Likewise you don't worry about charge timers or battery problems. It just works. You don't need to rent a car for long trips or keep a second car around "just in case".

I bought a Leaf knowing it's shortcomings and kept my Maxima "just in case". Up till now I've only needed it once but with the battery going bad in the Leaf I'll probably be using it more often on days when I need more than 60 miles of range. I should not have to do this but that's Nissan's fault for building a defective part.

 

[johnlocke]

It took awhile to produce this. Here's my stats (2016 30kwh w/ 92% SOH):
97.6% 394.23V 4.11
95.1% 393.07V 4.09
73.9% 380.75V 3.97
38.1% 354.66V 3.69
27.3% 345.29V 3.60

Sorry, didn't hit LBW (need to charge tonight for 21 mile commute).

Hope the rest helps!

Edit: The percentage charge is reported from LeafSpy, which at the last data point differed from the leaf display by ~8%!!

Interesting. How much difference is there between the Leaf Spy % and the dash % at various charge levels? If you could, when you get a chance, post the voltage at LBW. Since that's a fixed charge level (50 GID's) it would interesting to know how battery degradation affects that number. I used the dashboard % because it's available even if Leaf Spy isn't running. I normally don't run Leaf Spy except to check on the SOH , AH, and GID's numbers after I charge. I just thought it would be interesting to see what the actual voltage levels were at various states of charge. Why guess if you can get real world numbers!

I think LeafSpy is going by voltage? In the above case, 97.6% SOC (329 GIDs) is 100% on the dash, while 27.3% SOC (74 GIDs) was 20% on the dash.

We should probably ask Turbo3 about that since he wrote Leaf Spy. I'd like to know what SOC actually measures and why it shows 97.6% at full charge?

Update: I e-mailed Turbo3. The answer is: SOC represents the actual state of charge of the battery as reported by the BMS. The Dashboard % is an adjusted value that takes into account Nissan's safety margins for charge and discharge limits. SOC is absolute capacity while Dash % is useable capacity. Turns out that this is buried in the help file for Leaf Spy. My bad.

 

[SageBrush]

Most people simply can't be bothered to set up or use a charge timer. It's hard enough to get them used to the idea that they need to plug in the car every night. Trying to get them to figure out how to set the charge timer and how long to charge to get to just 80 or 90% without overcharging is nearly impossible.

As I said earlier -- morons. Lazy, entitiled, morons. After all, we *are* talking about a division problem here. They could even use their fingers to figure it out.

As for your other point, how many LEAF owners do not own a second car that can be called upon for the unusual middle of the night ride ?

In fact I own three other cars and a truck. That doesn't mean I want to drive them instead of the Leaf. How many other people can afford to have extra cars lying around "just in case"? Until you can get by with just an electric car they are never going to be popular. That is the whole point of a Tesla. It's the only car you NEED to do everything most people do with a car. Likewise you don't worry about charge timers or battery problems. It just works. You don't need to rent a car for long trips or keep a second car around "just in case".

A few people have tried to turn the 24 or 30 kWh LEAF into the only car in the household but it is really unusual unless there is a supporting public transport infrastructure like that in Europe. For just about everybody else the LEAF is not the only car in the family, and it does not imply another car sitting in the road waiting for that midnight call. I think I am a pretty typical LEAF owner, and own one additional car that has long range duties and would be called on in an emergency if the LEAF was not up to the task -- charge related or otherwise. When I buy my Model 3, my household will continue to operate two cars (wife's orders.) I favor keeping the LEAF while my wife favors keeping the Prius Prime.

The whining heard up-thread is just people trying to hide an intelligence deficit.

I've said it way too many times, but once more: there is no argument that the LEAF battery is a POS. I say this because it degrades way faster than any Tesla battery no matter the owner care, climate, or use. That we focus on owners left with an albatross within 2-3 years only highlights our low, low expectations.

 

[johnlocke]

As I said earlier -- morons. Lazy, entitiled, morons. After all, we *are* talking about a division problem here. They could even use their fingers to figure it out.

As for your other point, how many LEAF owners do not own a second car that can be called upon for the unusual middle of the night ride ?

In fact I own three other cars and a truck. That doesn't mean I want to drive them instead of the Leaf. How many other people can afford to have extra cars lying around "just in case"? Until you can get by with just an electric car they are never going to be popular. That is the whole point of a Tesla. It's the only car you NEED to do everything most people do with a car. Likewise you don't worry about charge timers or battery problems. It just works. You don't need to rent a car for long trips or keep a second car around "just in case".

A few people have tried to turn the 24 or 30 kWh LEAF into the only car in the household but it is really unusual unless there is a supporting public transport infrastructure like that in Europe. For just about everybody else the LEAF is not the only car in the family, and it does not imply another car sitting in the road waiting for that midnight call. I think I am a pretty typical LEAF owner, and own one additional car that has long range duties and would be called on in an emergency if the LEAF was not up to the task -- charge related or otherwise. When I buy my Model 3, my household will continue to operate two cars (wife's orders.) I favor keeping the LEAF while my wife favors keeping the Prius Prime.

The whining heard up-thread is just people trying to hide an intelligence deficit.

I've said it way too many times, but once more: there is no argument that the LEAF battery is a POS. I say this because it degrades way faster than any Tesla battery no matter the owner care, climate, or use. That we focus on owners left with an albatross within 2-3 years only highlights our low, low expectations.

If you own a second car, it undoubtedly is driven by your spouse and it may or may not be available when you need it. Hence the desire to keep that Leaf charged up. It's just being pragmatic. You can baby the battery all you like but that doesn't change the results by much at all. If you live in a cool climate the battery lasts longer than if you live in the desert. If you really want that battery to last, move to Alaska.

 

[ironmanco]

A few people have tried to turn the 24 or 30 kWh LEAF into the only car in the household but it is really unusual unless there is a supporting public transport infrastructure like that in Europe. For just about everybody else the LEAF is not the only car in the family, and it does not imply another car sitting in the road waiting for that midnight call. I think I am a pretty typical LEAF owner, and own one additional car that has long range duties and would be called on in an emergency if the LEAF was not up to the task -- charge related or otherwise. When I buy my Model 3, my household will continue to operate two cars (wife's orders.) I favor keeping the LEAF while my wife favors keeping the Prius Prime.

The whining heard up-thread is just people trying to hide an intelligence deficit.

I've said it way too many times, but once more: there is no argument that the LEAF battery is a POS. I say this because it degrades way faster than any Tesla battery no matter the owner care, climate, or use. That we focus on owners left with an albatross within 2-3 years only highlights our low, low expectations.

Well - give me that 200 kWh roadster battery, toss it on a all wheel drive transmission and with a frame set up for towing and I'm good.

We may not be a 1 car EV household, but we could definitely be a all EV household.

http://engt.co/2APsuTP

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

PIcture a two car household, one person with a 50 mile RT daily commute (at highway speeds) and the other with a 6 mile commute on surface streets. Is this household a good candidate for owning a LEAF?

 

[rcm4453]

The whining heard up-thread is just people trying to hide an intelligence deficit.

Wrong! Thanks for playing though!

I've said it way too many times, but once more: there is no argument that the LEAF battery is a POS. I say this because it degrades way faster than any Tesla battery no matter the owner care, climate, or use.

You just contradicted yourself with the above statement so who's the one with an intelligence deficit?!



You just admitted right there that the battery is a POS and it's going to degrade too fast no matter the owner's care, climate or use! So knowing this why would anyone that's remotely intelligent keep wasting their time setting charge timers every day?!


I knew if I left you enough rope you'd end up hanging yourself!

 

[GRA]

An awful lot of the posts in this thread need to be moved to the 'Snippiness' topic. Can we lay off with all the name calling, and disagree in a civil fashion?

 

[SageBrush]

You just admitted right there that the battery is a POS and it's going to degrade too fast no matter the owner's care, climate or use! So knowing this why would anyone that's remotely intelligent keep wasting their time setting charge timers every day?!

Read the following V E R Y slowly, as many times as you need:

Temperature severely affects the LEAF pack. If you want to extend the life of your car, you may HAVE to learn basic arithmetic. Or at least ask a 4rth grader in your neighborhood to make a table for you.