Far from moot -- why do you think the LEAF depreciates like a rock ?tattoogunman said:SageBrush said:Statistically, most people do not keep their cars anywhere near 15 years, so it's a moot point in my opinion.
Far from moot -- why do you think the LEAF depreciates like a rock ?tattoogunman said:SageBrush said:Statistically, most people do not keep their cars anywhere near 15 years, so it's a moot point in my opinion.
SageBrush said:Far from moot -- why do you think the LEAF depreciates like a rock ?tattoogunman said:SageBrush said:Statistically, most people do not keep their cars anywhere near 15 years, so it's a moot point in my opinion.
SageBrush said:Far from moot -- why do you think the LEAF depreciates like a rock ?
NahWetEV said:SageBrush said:Far from moot -- why do you think the LEAF depreciates like a rock ?
About $7500 more than most ICEs. More in some states.
SageBrush said:A $30k new LEAF fetches ~ $6k at auction after lease.
iPlug said:Nearly all manufactures will sell vehicles near MSRP for the first few months until pent-up demand abates. Then dealer and manufacturer incentives are commonly rolled out. That was certainly the case of the first generation of Leaf, then Nissan dealers were selling it for thousands below MRSP for the last few years (as threads here verify). In California, the most popular plug-in state, we also have $7,500 federal tax credit + $2,500 state refund.
Indeed, depreciation on BEVs, especially the Leaf, has been bad. But the relative percent is much less scary after taking these $10-15k+ discounts into account.
Tesla continues to only sell at MSRP because they can. That is a good problem to have.
You are a free citizen with a computer. If you do not want to take my word for it, look it up.WetEV said:SageBrush said:A $30k new LEAF fetches ~ $6k at auction after lease.
It is not "make up a fact Friday" today. Got a source, or just blowing FUD?
tattoogunman said:iPlug said:Nearly all manufactures will sell vehicles near MSRP for the first few months until pent-up demand abates. Then dealer and manufacturer incentives are commonly rolled out. That was certainly the case of the first generation of Leaf, then Nissan dealers were selling it for thousands below MRSP for the last few years (as threads here verify). In California, the most popular plug-in state, we also have $7,500 federal tax credit + $2,500 state refund.
Indeed, depreciation on BEVs, especially the Leaf, has been bad. But the relative percent is much less scary after taking these $10-15k+ discounts into account.
Tesla continues to only sell at MSRP because they can. That is a good problem to have.
But it's also assuming those discounts are available. Me personally, I don't like using tax credits as a defacto crutch to buying these vehicles. Not everyone is entitled to the tax credit at the end of the year and even if you are, if you don't immediately write your lien holder a check for $7500, you still paid full price for whatever EV you bought. Not every state has rebates either (like here in Texas). If those credits were all immediately taken off the purchase price at time of purchase, I wouldn't have such a huge problem with them. Those same credits will also be expiring for many in the not so distant future, so that's another reason why I don't like taking them into account. Heck, I found my first used 2017 Bolt for sale locally for $29K already - it's a base model car and if you add that $7500 credit back in, you're at about what the car's MSRP was. I also say all of this as a poor bloke, so don't get me wrong and I cannot afford any of the current crop of EVs at their new car prices.
iPlug said:tattoogunman said:iPlug said:Nearly all manufactures will sell vehicles near MSRP for the first few months until pent-up demand abates. Then dealer and manufacturer incentives are commonly rolled out. That was certainly the case of the first generation of Leaf, then Nissan dealers were selling it for thousands below MRSP for the last few years (as threads here verify). In California, the most popular plug-in state, we also have $7,500 federal tax credit + $2,500 state refund.
Indeed, depreciation on BEVs, especially the Leaf, has been bad. But the relative percent is much less scary after taking these $10-15k+ discounts into account.
Tesla continues to only sell at MSRP because they can. That is a good problem to have.
But it's also assuming those discounts are available. Me personally, I don't like using tax credits as a defacto crutch to buying these vehicles. Not everyone is entitled to the tax credit at the end of the year and even if you are, if you don't immediately write your lien holder a check for $7500, you still paid full price for whatever EV you bought. Not every state has rebates either (like here in Texas). If those credits were all immediately taken off the purchase price at time of purchase, I wouldn't have such a huge problem with them. Those same credits will also be expiring for many in the not so distant future, so that's another reason why I don't like taking them into account. Heck, I found my first used 2017 Bolt for sale locally for $29K already - it's a base model car and if you add that $7500 credit back in, you're at about what the car's MSRP was. I also say all of this as a poor bloke, so don't get me wrong and I cannot afford any of the current crop of EVs at their new car prices.
Not really an assumption. What evidence is there that most new Leaf buyers can’t take most or all of the $7500 federal tax credit? That is, ones who actually buy the vehicle. If you have a source, please provide.
Sure there are folks who truly don’t have the income to qualify for the full credit. But they don’t count if they didn’t buy the vehicle any more than I don’t count for not having bought a Lamborghini. But it’s baked into the lease regardless of one’s income and many lease BEVs. In fact, current gen 2 Leaf leases reflect at least $7500 off as Nissan assumes the credit.
Most Leafs historically have been sold in States like California with similar rebates. Colorado, for example is more generous.
Don’t take my word on it, look at the prices paid thread. Last year was ridiculous with clearing out inventory and some folks got a new Leaf for as little as $11k. ~$10-15k off was more typical for most of the gen 1 Leaf lifecycle for actual purchase and lease.
Look at the table again. Start from the first row.powersurge said:...we should not compare Nissan with Tesla. They are two different animals. Nissan is producing buyable cars, and Tesla is an high priced experiment
iPlug said:tattoogunman said:iPlug said:Nearly all manufactures will sell vehicles near MSRP for the first few months until pent-up demand abates. Then dealer and manufacturer incentives are commonly rolled out. That was certainly the case of the first generation of Leaf, then Nissan dealers were selling it for thousands below MRSP for the last few years (as threads here verify). In California, the most popular plug-in state, we also have $7,500 federal tax credit + $2,500 state refund.
Indeed, depreciation on BEVs, especially the Leaf, has been bad. But the relative percent is much less scary after taking these $10-15k+ discounts into account.
Tesla continues to only sell at MSRP because they can. That is a good problem to have.
But it's also assuming those discounts are available. Me personally, I don't like using tax credits as a defacto crutch to buying these vehicles. Not everyone is entitled to the tax credit at the end of the year and even if you are, if you don't immediately write your lien holder a check for $7500, you still paid full price for whatever EV you bought. Not every state has rebates either (like here in Texas). If those credits were all immediately taken off the purchase price at time of purchase, I wouldn't have such a huge problem with them. Those same credits will also be expiring for many in the not so distant future, so that's another reason why I don't like taking them into account. Heck, I found my first used 2017 Bolt for sale locally for $29K already - it's a base model car and if you add that $7500 credit back in, you're at about what the car's MSRP was. I also say all of this as a poor bloke, so don't get me wrong and I cannot afford any of the current crop of EVs at their new car prices.
Not really an assumption. What evidence is there that most new Leaf buyers can’t take most or all of the $7500 federal tax credit? That is, ones who actually buy the vehicle. If you have a source, please provide.
Sure there are folks who truly don’t have the income to qualify for the full credit. But they don’t count if they didn’t buy the vehicle any more than I don’t count for not having bought a Lamborghini. But it’s baked into the lease regardless of one’s income and many lease BEVs. In fact, current gen 2 Leaf leases reflect at least $7500 off as Nissan assumes the credit.
Most Leafs historically have been sold in States like California with similar rebates. Colorado, for example is more generous.
Don’t take my word on it, look at the prices paid thread. Last year was ridiculous with clearing out inventory and some folks got a new Leaf for as little as $11k. ~$10-15k off was more typical for most of the gen 1 Leaf lifecycle for actual purchase and lease.
powersurge said:This topic was to talk about comparing two cars.... No one is doing this....
I don't care who can't get the total tax rebate (that's their problem), I don't care what people think about the car's depreciation, AND I don't care what they think of the Leaf's MSRP.
If you bought one, then all that is ancient history.... I do agree that we should not compare Nissan with Tesla. They are two different animals. Nissan is producing buyable cars, and Tesla is an high priced experiment that may not be in existence in 5-10 years....
I think that the 18 LeAF is a great improvement, and will get better as it approaches the specs of the BOLT. I really do not have any trust that GM will continue with the Bolt. They do not have an EV friendly track record....
tattoogunman said:iPlug said:tattoogunman said:But it's also assuming those discounts are available. Me personally, I don't like using tax credits as a defacto crutch to buying these vehicles. Not everyone is entitled to the tax credit at the end of the year and even if you are, if you don't immediately write your lien holder a check for $7500, you still paid full price for whatever EV you bought. Not every state has rebates either (like here in Texas). If those credits were all immediately taken off the purchase price at time of purchase, I wouldn't have such a huge problem with them. Those same credits will also be expiring for many in the not so distant future, so that's another reason why I don't like taking them into account. Heck, I found my first used 2017 Bolt for sale locally for $29K already - it's a base model car and if you add that $7500 credit back in, you're at about what the car's MSRP was. I also say all of this as a poor bloke, so don't get me wrong and I cannot afford any of the current crop of EVs at their new car prices.
Not really an assumption. What evidence is there that most new Leaf buyers can’t take most or all of the $7500 federal tax credit? That is, ones who actually buy the vehicle. If you have a source, please provide.
Sure there are folks who truly don’t have the income to qualify for the full credit. But they don’t count if they didn’t buy the vehicle any more than I don’t count for not having bought a Lamborghini. But it’s baked into the lease regardless of one’s income and many lease BEVs. In fact, current gen 2 Leaf leases reflect at least $7500 off as Nissan assumes the credit.
Most Leafs historically have been sold in States like California with similar rebates. Colorado, for example is more generous.
Don’t take my word on it, look at the prices paid thread. Last year was ridiculous with clearing out inventory and some folks got a new Leaf for as little as $11k. ~$10-15k off was more typical for most of the gen 1 Leaf lifecycle for actual purchase and lease.
No direct source per se, just the feedback I get from many of the people I've talked to over the years in person, online, etc. Overwhelmingly, most of them have told me that they would not have bought an EV if the credits had not been available with the exception being the people I know with a Tesla (and yes, that implies that those who can afford to buy a Tesla are probably less concerned about $7500 than someone looking at a Leaf, Bolt, etc.).
For me personally, I am in a low income category and cannot afford any of the current crop of EVs at their new prices. As much as I like the Leaf, it is not a $30K plus car in my opinion. Used they are an absolute bargain, but when I have these discussions, it is with the assumption that we're talking new prices and not used.
tattoogunman said:powersurge said:This topic was to talk about comparing two cars.... No one is doing this....
I don't care who can't get the total tax rebate (that's their problem), I don't care what people think about the car's depreciation, AND I don't care what they think of the Leaf's MSRP.
If you bought one, then all that is ancient history.... I do agree that we should not compare Nissan with Tesla. They are two different animals. Nissan is producing buyable cars, and Tesla is an high priced experiment that may not be in existence in 5-10 years....
I think that the 18 LeAF is a great improvement, and will get better as it approaches the specs of the BOLT. I really do not have any trust that GM will continue with the Bolt. They do not have an EV friendly track record....
Agreed and it's something I've said before - every time I see an article about an EV, Tesla is immediately mentioned in the next sentence and it's not realistic. About the only EV on the market that I think can be realistically compared to the Model 3 is the Bolt - similar equipment, similar price, similar performance, similar range, etc. and those are valid comparisons. The Leaf really cannot compete to either other than being in the similar price bracket in my opinion. This is why, purely in my opinion, comparing a Leaf to the Model 3 is pointless in the same way that you would not compare a Corolla to a BMW 3 series.
Nice effort! Thoughts and suggestion on AEB/Auto Emergency Braking is to break this into two line/entries. My recently research into the Volt and Bolt is that they only do up to 37 MPH (Low Speed Auto Emerg Braking) but supposedly the Volt with ACC/Adaptive Cruise Control will do High-Speed AEB. Bolt does not offer ACC that I know of. That seems to be a secret tho as I (nor others in the know) can locate any doc on that. Still roads around Chicagoland even in the suburbs are 40 and 45 MPH so the up to 37 MPH in the Volt/Bolt is not great.SageBrush said:I started this table in another thread but I think it has reached a point where I can bring it out to full light. As more information or errors emerge I'll update this OP. Please refrain from quoting the table since I have no way of updating the table in a quote.
Last updated: 1/25/2018, 20:34 MST
Change log:
1/25: Auto Emergency braking added to 'S' and 'SV' models
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