A123 Systems Battery News and Discussion

[Herm]

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/08/gm-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ction.html

"General Motors has tapped A123 Systems to produce complete battery packs for an undisclosed battery-electric vehicle (BEV) and potentially provide the cells for packs for other electric-drive vehicles, company sources told AutoObserver on Wednesday. The news came hours before GM and A123 distributed a joint statement early Thursday announcing that GM had awarded a production contract for complete battery packs to Massachusetts-based A123 to be used "in future GM electric vehicles to be sold in select global markets." Both companies officially withheld mention of the BEV and kept details regarding the contract to a minimum."

"Neither Forcier or Kelly would disclose any of the specific product information or brand information at this time, but Kelly confirmed Forcier's assertion that the contract involves "tens of thousands" of battery packs annually. The contract includes advanced nanophosphate cells and fully integrated electronic components such as controllers and thermal regulators. "The specific vehicles and brands will be announced at a later date," the companies said in a statement. But a well-placed source at GM said the battery pack will power a full battery-electric vehicle, one like a Nissan Leaf or a Tesla Roadster, as opposed to a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, such as the Chevrolet Volt."

 

[evnow]

I hope GM makes a BEV - atleast that will stop them from spreading FUD aboute EVs.

 

[SanDust]

Very interesting. GM was busy today, first with this K announcement and then with the Converj announcement.

The A123 battery technology has good energy density, great power density, and great cycle life. Per spec it's far better than the LiMn2O4 chemistry used in the Leaf and the Volt. GM considered the A123 batteries for the Volt but decided to go with LG Chem. Reading between the lines, GM didn't think the A123 batteries were ready for prime time from a safety and stability standpoint. Those issues may have been resolved with newer prismatic cells. GM has been testing the A123 batteries for almost four years so I'm thinking the performance characteristics are well understood.

GM is definitely hedging its bets. If this report is true, it's using Hitachi batteries for the hybrids, LG Chem batteries for the EREVs, and A123 batteries for BEVs.

A really good day for A123. Great to see because their technology is really good and they were so hosed by their Chinese partners.

 

[Herm]

What A123 batteries are know for is ruggedness and fast charge ability, how does 15 min 100% charges sound to you?. BYD is also threatening to sell their long range BEV in the US, also using LiFePO4 batteries.

To me it sounds like the spooling up unregistered backpack nuclear accelerators used in Ghostbusters

 

[surfingslovak]

What A123 batteries are know for is ruggedness and fast charge ability, how does 15 min 100% charges sound to you?. BYD is also threatening to sell their long range BEV in the US, also using LiFePO4 batteries.

To me it sounds like the spooling up unregistered backpack nuclear accelerators used in Ghostbusters

+1 :-D

 

[evnow]

The A123 battery technology has good energy density, great power density, and great cycle life.

LiFePO is poor in energy density.

 

[Ingineer]

I've got 864 of the A123 26650's in my Prius PHEV Conversion. I've got over 400 cycles on them now, and they still have 100% of their rated capacity, and are staying well-balanced.

-Phil

 

[surfingslovak]

I've got 864 of the A123 26650's in my Prius PHEV Conversion. I've got over 400 cycles on them now, and they still have 100% of their rated capacity, and are staying well-balanced.

Wow, that's awesome! I'm curious what DoD cycle do you usually run?

 

[Ingineer]

I've got 864 of the A123 26650's in my Prius PHEV Conversion. I've got over 400 cycles on them now, and they still have 100% of their rated capacity, and are staying well-balanced.

Wow, that's awesome! I'm curious what DoD cycle do you usually run?

It varies depending on the trip. I always recharge after even short trips, but it only does a top balance 1 out of 8 cycles. I never discharge to below 10% SOC, and it starts fading back into standard "Prius" mode at 15%.

I charge at 3.5kW most of the time. The battery temp only rises a few degrees. (No active cooling)

-Phil

 

[mitch672]

Yeah, Ingineer, I'm still waiting for your "PHEV Kit/plans" to be released, looks like you've decided to start your EVSE mod business, so I guess I'll have to buy the Plug in Prius (would rather convert my 2010 though).

I still think with a well designed kit (or plans, to limit your liability), you could do pretty well in the Prius Gen2/Gen3 PHEV conversion business

FYI: we had most of this discussion over at PriusChat, if my username looks familiar

Mitch

 

[Ingineer]

Yeah, Ingineer, I'm still waiting for your "PHEV Kit/plans" to be released, looks like you've decided to start your EVSE mod business, so I guess I'll have to buy the Plug in Prius (would rather convert my 2010 though).

I still think with a well designed kit (or plans, to limit your liability), you could do pretty well in the Prius Gen2/Gen3 PHEV conversion business

FYI: we had most of this discussion over at PriusChat, if my username looks familiar

Mitch

Unfortunately CARB has pretty much put the Kibosh on "experimental" PHEV work in California. Their requirements are way too strict. There are still plans underway to do it in other states though.

-Phil

 

[mitch672]

Yeah, Ingineer, I'm still waiting for your "PHEV Kit/plans" to be released, looks like you've decided to start your EVSE mod business, so I guess I'll have to buy the Plug in Prius (would rather convert my 2010 though).

I still think with a well designed kit (or plans, to limit your liability), you could do pretty well in the Prius Gen2/Gen3 PHEV conversion business

FYI: we had most of this discussion over at PriusChat, if my username looks familiar

Mitch

Unfortunately CARB has pretty much put the Kibosh on "experimental" PHEV work in California. Their requirements are way too strict. There are still plans underway to do it in other states though.

-Phil

Thats good news for me, I'm in Massachusetts - I have my checkbook ready, just waiting on you

 

[TRONZ]

I thought GM had already completed their own battery production facility. Why are they outsourcing the cells... or did I miss something???

 

[surfingslovak]

I always recharge after even short trips, but it only does a top balance 1 out of 8 cycles. I never discharge to below 10% SOC, and it starts fading back into standard "Prius" mode at 15%. I charge at 3.5kW most of the time.

That's even more impressive. I thought that you would be running a shallow cycle, but this sounds like 60 or 80%. I'm guessing that you are slightly above 0.5C charge current. Very cool.

 

[Ingineer]

That's even more impressive. I thought that you would be running a shallow cycle, but this sounds like 60 or 80%. I'm guessing that you are slightly above 0.5C charge current. Very cool.

Yes, pretty close to 1/2C. The A123 cells are rated for a 15 minute charge if you so desire. (120 amps is hard to come by though!)

-Phil

 

[Herm]

I thought GM had already completed their own battery production facility. Why are they outsourcing the cells... or did I miss something???

They dont make cells (and never planned to), just assemble cells and the BMS into packs.. with this announcement they are not even doing that. BTW, GM says (for a Volt) assembly is 30% of the cost of a pack.

 

[rnkepler]

Has A123 ever resolved its IP issues? Looks like Hydro-Quebec filed a patent infringement suit against them in June. Guess not.

Hydro-Quebec v. A123 Systems, Inc et. al.

 

[AndyH]

Has A123 ever resolved its IP issues? Looks like Hydro-Quebec filed a patent infringement suit against them in June. Guess not.

Hydro-Quebec v. A123 Systems, Inc et. al.

That was June 2010.

I don't know the status of this specific charge, but A123 has survived other attacks from H-Q. Hydro-Quebec has also sued DeWalt and Black and Decker over their use of A123 cells in their power tools. This resulted in removing the tools from the market. They've also gone after Segway. In my opinion, this is more about someone using the patent system to harass a company...

http://gizmodo.com/5805875/the-knock+down-drag+out-fight-over-the-next-generation-of-batteries

A central battle in the lithium wars began in the early 1990s...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll

 

[evnow]

I don't know the status of this specific charge, but A123 has survived other attacks from H-Q. Hydro-Quebec has also sued DeWalt and Black and Decker over their use of A123 cells in their power tools. This resulted in removing the tools from the market. They've also gone after Segway. In my opinion, this is more about someone using the patent system to harass a company...

I guess they are also just waiting for BYD to release their EV in the US before filing a case.

 

[SanDust]

I guess they are also just waiting for BYD to release their EV in the US before filing a case.

Probably not. The chemistry of the BYD batteries may essentially be LeFePO4, but the materials used in the BYD batteries aren't covered by the UT patents.

I wouldn't say this is a patent troll suit. Most likely it will end in some money exchanging hands and cross licensing. A123 may be infringing the UT patents, but the UT patents may not be worth much without the A123 patents. (Note the UT patents have been revoked in Europe).

Hopefully they'll stop litigating and agree on something.