A123 Systems Battery News and Discussion

[rnkepler]

Has A123 ever resolved its IP issues? Looks like Hydro-Quebec filed a patent infringement suit against them in June. Guess not.

Hydro-Quebec v. A123 Systems, Inc et. al.

That was June 2010.

According to the link it was filed a couple months ago.

Civil Action No. 3:11-cv-01217-K, the Hon. Ed Kinkeade presiding.
Filed on June 7, 2011 in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Texas;

I don't know the status of this specific charge, but A123 has survived other attacks from H-Q. Hydro-Quebec has also sued DeWalt and Black and Decker over their use of A123 cells in their power tools. This resulted in removing the tools from the market. They've also gone after Segway. In my opinion, this is more about someone using the patent system to harass a company...

My understanding of the case was that H-Q has a legitimate complaint against A123 and they aren't patent trolling. It's been going on so long I was surprised it never came up during A123's IPO process. Hopefully they'll work it out soon.

 

[walterbays]

My understanding of the case was that H-Q has a legitimate complaint against A123 and they aren't patent trolling. It's been going on so long I was surprised it never came up during A123's IPO process. Hopefully they'll work it out soon.

Chapter 6 of Bottled Lightning (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5000) details the legal and scientific controversy surrounding A123. It concerns John Goodenough's work on iron phosphate at the University of Texas, its exclusive license to Hydro-Quebec, and the question, still not scientifically settled, of whether Chiang's batteries show increased conductivity due to his doping process, or due to carbon impurities.

 

[AndyH]

Has A123 ever resolved its IP issues? Looks like Hydro-Quebec filed a patent infringement suit against them in June. Guess not.

Hydro-Quebec v. A123 Systems, Inc et. al.

That was June 2010.

According to the link it was filed a couple months ago.

Sorry. An additional referenced case was from 2010.

This back and forth has been going on from the beginning and it's negatively impacted A123 (didn't their tech come out of MIT?!), Valence, and companies using their cells.

Here's another example - note the N Texas filing from H-Q/UT:
http://www.ipo.org/AM/Template.cfm?...ntentID=27649&template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm

A month later, on September 11, 2006, HQ and UT jointly initiated an infringement suit against A123, among others, in the Northern District of Texas.

Here's a look at the culture of the Texas patent scene...
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/07/26/138576167/when-patents-attack
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/when-patents-attack

Why would a company rent an office in a tiny town in East Texas, put a nameplate on the door, and leave it completely empty for a year? The answer involves a controversial billionaire physicist in Seattle, a 40 pound cookbook, and a war waging right now, all across the software and tech industries.

This may be another reason why EV makers are staying away from this tech and using LiMn...

 

[evnow]

Ironically, the urban legend is that BYD stole the technology from A123.

 

[walterbays]

Ironically, the urban legend is that BYD stole the technology from A123.

Bottled Lightning notes that Valence which produces the batteries for Segway was sued by Hydro-Quebec, and Valence sued Phostech Lithium. Fletcher writes, "If BYD begins selling those batteries in the United States, it may be inviting a lawsuit. Aside from the Valence-Phostech case, only one other major legal disputes [sic] involving lithium iron phosphate had been settled by the time of this book's publication. In October 2008, Nippon Telegraph and Telephone settled its suit out of court."

It's interesting that Valence won against Phostech, a Montreal startup to which Hydro-Quebec transferred its license to manufacture lithium iron phosphate electrode powder. Hydro-Quebec's battery manufacturing went through a succession of company transfers, landing at Avestor, 50% of which was sold to oil company Kerr-McGee. Coincidentally (?) Avestor pulled out of the automotive market after its main customer, a consortium of French car makers, bailed out. Avestor focused instead on the telecom market, gaining prominence in 2006 when AT&T Uverse neighborhood cable boxes began exploding.

[edit] An NTT scientist was a collaborator with Goodenough in the initial iron phosphate research. The first iron phosphate lawsuit as filed in 2001, University of Texas and Hydro-Quebec against NTT. NTT had filed for a Japanese patent, which was granted, in 1995 - 13 months after the NTT scientist (Okada) returned from Goodenough's Austin lab.

 

[SanDust]

LiFePO is poor in energy density.

You're looking at it too statically. The critical question is: When? Yes it's lower initially. But given they lose capacity more slowly, after a couple of years they probably have a higher energy density.

 

[evnow]

You're looking at it too statically. The critical question is: When? Yes it's lower initially. But given they lose capacity more slowly, after a couple of years they probably have a higher energy density.

Using "probably" doesn't absolve you from speculation. No, batteries don't lose like 50% of capacity in 2 years.

Ultimately I think NMC and Gallium will battle it out for suprimacy until Li Air becomes commercially available.

 

[evnow]

"Neither Forcier or Kelly would disclose any of the specific product information or brand information at this time, but Kelly confirmed Forcier's assertion that the contract involves "tens of thousands" of battery packs annually. The contract includes advanced nanophosphate cells and fully integrated electronic components such as controllers and thermal regulators. "The specific vehicles and brands will be announced at a later date," the companies said in a statement. But a well-placed source at GM said the battery pack will power a full battery-electric vehicle, one like a Nissan Leaf or a Tesla Roadster, as opposed to a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, such as the Chevrolet Volt."

I think this would be hybrids rather than a BEV. That goes well with high power & # of cycles that A123 offers compared to higher density LG batteries.

In other words for us - move along, nothing to see here.

 

[SanDust]

I think this would be hybrids rather than a BEV. That goes well with high power & # of cycles that A123 offers compared to higher density LG batteries.

In other words for us - move along, nothing to see here.

He also said the packs would be significantly larger than what is found in the Volt. A battery pack significantly larger than the Volt's would make for one HELL of a hybrid.

As for energy density, the Leaf battery has an energy density of 140 Wh/kg. No idea where you'd get the idea that the A123 batteries have an energy density of 70 Wh/kg. (In 2009 they were at 165 Wh/kg raw, so probably about 140 Wh/kg in the pack).

 

[HighDesertDriver]

I guess they are also just waiting for BYD to release their EV in the US before filing a case.

BYD has been nosing around Lancaster (northern Los Angeles county) the past 2-3 years checking locations and city tax amenities for a battery manufacturing facility and (later) a vehicle assembly plant. The mayor has been over there and some sort of agreement was signed earlier this year.

Edited 14 Aug 11 correcting "northern California" to "northern Los Angeles county". Sorry for error caused by rushing.

 

[TRONZ]

I guess they are also just waiting for BYD to release their EV in the US before filing a case.

BYD has been nosing around Lancaster (northern California) the past 2-3 years checking locations and city tax amenities for a battery manufacturing facility and (later) a vehicle assembly plant. The mayor has been over there and some sort of agreement was signed earlier this year.

Lancaster is actually in the SoCal High Desert next to Edwards AFB. They have alot of military and military contractors in the area. It could be a very good Industrial location for them but NoCal would be a better Tech location.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

I guess they are also just waiting for BYD to release their EV in the US before filing a case.

BYD has been nosing around Lancaster (northern California) the past 2-3 years checking locations and city tax amenities for a battery manufacturing facility and (later) a vehicle assembly plant. The mayor has been over there and some sort of agreement was signed earlier this year.

Lancaster is actually in the SoCal High Desert next to Edwards AFB. They have alot of military and military contractors in the area. It could be a very good Industrial location for them but NoCal would be a better Tech location.

You are absolutely right, and apart from temporary insanity, I have no good excuse, living "next door" in Palmdale. Original post corrected. Thanks for the catch!

 

[evnow]

He also said the packs would be significantly larger than what is found in the Volt.

Link - and actual quote?

 

[SanDust]

He also said the packs would be significantly larger than what is found in the Volt.

Link - and actual quote?

Friday's NY Times.

 

[evnow]

Friday's NY Times.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/12/cadillac-converj-may-go-forward-but-not-with-a123-batteries/?scp=1&sq=A123&st=cse

He (Jason Forcier, an A123 executive) described the coming unit for G.M. as “a large energy pack, bigger than the 16-kilowatt-hour battery in the Volt.” According to Mr. Forcier, the new pack will be ready for production by the end of 2012.

Interesting. This could only mean a BEV or a plugin 2-mode SUV/Truck hybrid.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Interesting. This could only mean a BEV or a plugin 2-mode SUV/Truck hybrid.

It could mean a 100% electric Volt.

 

[Herm]

It could mean a 100% electric Volt.

Doubtful, GM has made a lot of hay out of range anxiety with the Volt, but there is some talk of a Spark BEV.

A low cost SUV 2 Mode Plug-In would sell, but not a pickup truck. The Volt's electric drivetrain is a derivative of the FWD 2 Mode transmission... they could go that way in an SUV and pair it with a small engine. The new Ford Explorer with the 4 cyl engine is selling well.

A smaller than normal pack for an SUV Plug-In is suitable for the A123 cells, since they can deliver very high power.. something like 6-10kwh, with bigger packs optional. The cells used in the Volt are nearly tapped out in terms of power.

Sheez another edit.. the Volts tranmission was designed to allow using a larger motor, so a Voltec SUV with about 200hp could be done.. not sure if the size of the generator can be increased past 50kw.

 

[evnow]

Just on cue, there is speculation in GreenCarReports about a possible BEV Spark. It will be a B segment car unlike the C segment Leaf or Focus EV.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1064551_will-gms-first-all-electric-car-be-a-chevy-spark-minicar

GM showed a BEV Beat in India in June. I'm sure the 2 guys are melting under the suit ...

 

[adric22]

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/08/gm-taps-a123-for-ev-battery-pack-production.html

"General Motors has tapped A123 Systems to produce complete battery packs for an undisclosed battery-electric vehicle (BEV) and potentially provide the cells for packs for other electric-drive vehicles, "

Well, I have a sneaking suspicion that there were still folks high up in the GM chain of command that thought electric vehicles would never sell, including their own Volt. Or at least not in high enough numbers to be profitable. Then along comes the Leaf and their own Volt which cannot even be purchased without getting on a waiting list because the demand is so much higher than the supply. So now that they see there really is demand, they are probably starting to think ahead and get something down the pipeline that can compete with the Leaf.

 

[Herm]

Well a BEV is an easy car to make, no emissions certification and if they do a conversion on an existing model very little crash testing.. GM has all the bits needed already, they would be crazy to leave the market to Nissan, even more so if they can lower the cost with an iMiev type car and a small pack.

It may even enhance Volt sales since it has limited range.