Actor Joseph Gordon-Levitt prefers his Leaf over a Tesla
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Berlino
Well-known member
GaslessInSeattle said:
Wow, in what conditions can you not do 50 miles? My absolute worst outing for energy consumption this Winter was a 20-mile drive at 55 mph into a 6 mph headwind when the temperature was -7°F. However, this only used about 1/3 of my available kWh.
fwiw, I'm also starting to believe that the 2013 LEAF battery is much more durable than the one in your vehicle. After 6.5 months and 6900 miles, I am at 228 Gids for my last two recharges to 80%. My last full charge was a month ago to 283 Gids.
Folks, GaslessinSeattle is a long-time contributor to MNL and has provided plenty of insight over the years. He has slowly become less enamored with the Leaf due to his purchase of the Tesla. IIRC, he has even posted very positive comments about the Leaf, especially it's usefulness for short-trips (even after he received the Tesla). Obviously, now he has a longer range, higher performance EV. Perhaps his driving techniques have changed from hypermiling to more performance as well. I too am surprised by not being able to drive 50 mi in Seattle, but that is likely at 60-70 mph at below freezing temps and with the heater running. In such a situation, I would expect similar range limitations. Also, most people are uncomfortable using the last few e-miles:
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/02/25/psychology-can-wipe-out-20-25-of-your-evs-range/
I have driven a Tesla owner around in my Leaf, at 70 mph with less than 10 mi showing on the GOM and, yes, they were extremely worried that I wouldn't be able to drop them off for their dinner engagement, let alone me traveling another 6 miles to get home. It all depends on your comfort level.
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/02/25/psychology-can-wipe-out-20-25-of-your-evs-range/
I have driven a Tesla owner around in my Leaf, at 70 mph with less than 10 mi showing on the GOM and, yes, they were extremely worried that I wouldn't be able to drop them off for their dinner engagement, let alone me traveling another 6 miles to get home. It all depends on your comfort level.
mkjayakumar
Well-known member
GaselessInSeattle has been around Leaf and this forum a lot and he knows what he is talking.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
In your climate I wouldn't expect to see any significant degradation of the battery after 6½ months in mostly cool to cold weather. Whether or not the 2013 battery will last longer remains to be seen. The fact that at least one Phoenix 2013 LEAF has already dropped a capacity bar does not bode well IMO.Berlino said:
I've noticed that my battery degradation just stopped dead when the battery temperature dropped below about 10ºC. And that's with the older battery that is notorious for degrading rapidly. Now that it is warming up I expect the degradation to resume. You will stay cooler for longer I expect, and that should help your battery last a long time.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
Berlino said:
the differences between the 2013 and 2012 MY are becoming more and more apparent all the time. Its funny I read this post today because I "tested" my 2013 today. I went to a local farm to pick up my order of Beef and it was 55.7 miles round trip which was
.4 miles @ 25 mph.
1.8 miles @ 40 mph.
.6 miles @ 25 mph
6 miles @ 60 mph
12.7 miles @ 70 mph
6.2 miles @ 55 mph
then reversed.
got home with 19.9 on LEAF Spy estimator to 4% reserve. Had heat on and set to 65º toggling between it and defrost as needed. OAT 38º. Using S trim w/o heat exchange system.
but in his case; its not how far you can go, its how comfortable you are getting there.
TomT
Well-known member
A 2011 or 2012 Leaf would exhibit similar battery performance in that climate. It's all about location!
Berlino said:
GregH
Well-known member
So true! (as evidence, the folks who don't like to hit LBW let alone VLBW)Reddy said:
Better instrumentation would help, although I also understand the OEM's need to simplify and not over-promise (like the low gas light coming on in a 50mpg Prius with 2 gallons left in the tank... more range than my Leaf!).
The other day a friend took my car and arrived at his destination with 5 miles on the GOM. Plugged into 120V but tripped a breaker and didn't end up charging. I needed 13 miles to get home. During that drive I went from 48Gids to 26Gids. No problem and I didn't even hit VLBW. I'm guessing many Leaf drivers wouldn't attempt a 13 mile drive with 5 miles on the GOM.
"GaselessInSeattle has been around Leaf and this forum a lot and he knows what he is talking."
Really? Obviously doesn't understand the BEV market, i.e. Like Nissan lacks any strategic marketing
capabilities and produces products without any understanding of alternate buyer's choices, right? Please!
Sounds like many here, just because of the 'green effect', would surely spend another $10K-$15K
for double the present Leaf's range, right? That's NOT the case for the typical high MPG car buyer that
makes purchase decisions based on pure economics. Based on the added cost for twice the present
Leaf's range, the sales of the Leaf would be less than 10% of the present Leaf sales, i.e. there would
be basically NO market for the that Leaf in the $40K-$45K+ price! That's why the Tesla 'E' will fail
as a volume mass market BEV unless it can achieve a price in the mid to low $30Ks.
Really? Obviously doesn't understand the BEV market, i.e. Like Nissan lacks any strategic marketing
capabilities and produces products without any understanding of alternate buyer's choices, right? Please!
Sounds like many here, just because of the 'green effect', would surely spend another $10K-$15K
for double the present Leaf's range, right? That's NOT the case for the typical high MPG car buyer that
makes purchase decisions based on pure economics. Based on the added cost for twice the present
Leaf's range, the sales of the Leaf would be less than 10% of the present Leaf sales, i.e. there would
be basically NO market for the that Leaf in the $40K-$45K+ price! That's why the Tesla 'E' will fail
as a volume mass market BEV unless it can achieve a price in the mid to low $30Ks.
mitch672
Well-known member
lorenfb said:
Model E is supposed to have a 200 mile+ range, able to use the Tesla SuperCharger network, and have a base price of $35K
options could bring it higher, much higher. But I fully expect you'll be able to buy a drivable car for $35K. It's also not going to be hideous looking, that will help as well. a car that can replace an ICE for ALL of your driving is what people want to buy, and Tesla will be there, Nissan? who knows, they show lack of follow through and commitment (remember, they make ICE cars as well, which is why they are reluctant to make a long range EV), and they've had a several year head start, along with billions of dollars from Nissans coffers.
GaslessInSeattle
Well-known member
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Reddy said:
Thanks Reddy, I appreciate getting the benefit of the doubt here. my leanings, impressions, driving style have all surely evolved. that said, what i'm seeing goes way beyond just that. I'm even noticing that the first bar drops off more quickly than the rest, and even worse, I've gotten that tell tail sign that I might be heading for loosing my first (long term) capacity bar, I've charged the car to 100% several times now and gone out and found that only 11 (short term) bars are showing. I've gone in for my annual battery test and gotten all 5 stars on everthing, i'm supposedly doing everything right and by Nissan's measure, the battery is in top shape, which is total BS!
I definitely got burned out on hypermiling quite a while ago, so I'm not driving slow in the right lane with the heater off and the windows all fogged up, I'm driving with traffic with climate control on as needed, which is what the mass market expects. I also don't do the exotic things I used to do to warm the battery up on cold days, like prewarm the car from 80% to 100% over an hour or two if I needed to stretch the range. But even then, I have done several runs up north to go hiking like I used to in my previous Leaf's. Even in cold weather I could get to the trail head with plenty to spare, I now need to quick charge on the way there and the way back while I only used to have to quick charge on the way back. It's 52 miles to the Burlington quick charger from my house, I get there with 3 miles left on the GOM. Even after quick charging and warming the battery, I can barely make it home going with traffic.
What may account for what is happening is that I treat the car very differently than I did with my previous Leafs, since it's Leased. just to recount history, I originally purchased a 2011 Leaf when the cold weather package was not common, it being an orphan, it did not have a choice about the cold weather package that early on. After a year of ownership and another winter, I got wise to the value of heated seats and steering wheel so I traded up to a 2012 SLE. After the Phoenix folks started reporting dramatic losses of range prematurely, I got worried that the Leaf would lose residual value (which it has, like a rock). After a year of owning it I called the dealer and talked them into giving me a decent trade in, covering money owed, no money down, straight swap for a new 2012 lease, this was at the beginning of 2013, at the end of a month when they were hot to get rid of 2012's. the Lease has been great with respect to limiting my losses, but I have not babied the car at all and it get's driven a lot less. instead of charging it to 50% and topping up before using it, I've done exactly as Nissan recommends and plugged it in set to an 80% charge.
The unusual part is that it sits the vast majority of time at 80%. I work from home and rarely drive it at this point, so unlike many folks who drive their Leaf's to work and leave them well below 80% for much of the day, mine sits at a high SOC pretty much all the time. This may be the culprit I don't know. It may also be that degraded batteries take a disproportional hit in range in the cold.
In any case, Nissan needs to come out with a car that can be driven like any other and get a decent, relatively consistent range. Nissan has proven, IMHO, that not including temperature management is a bad idea. Tesla has proven that it's a good idea. I'm skeptical of their new "heat resistant" battery, I was told the first time around that the battery was heat resistant, tested rigorously just outside Phoenix AZ, which was either BS or Nissan went to market with a known flaw. I suppose we all should have known, given the 6 pages of disclaimers stating in so many ways that the warranty didn't cover "gradual" capacity loss, but I don't think any of us understood Nissan's definition of gradual... dramatic loss in just one or two years is not gradual by any goodwill definition of the term.
lorenfb said:
Not be too argumentative, but how is it that you know the BEV market so well. Double the range = greater longevity despite degradation. If you sell a $38k Leaf ($10k for double capacity) and the battery makes it 12 years to EOL, then it becomes a very cheap option when you count TCO. After tax credit and gas savings, the TCO should beat a Prius in low cost electricity areas. I mean $6k recoups in 10 years easily and that is neglecting oil changes and other maintenance.
And I think more people are comfortable with a replacement battery being reasonably priced in 12 years rather than 5. Double capacity should equal more than double life...
I think everyone knows that the Model E ASP will be way over $35k.
Nubo
Well-known member
mitch672 said:
I wouldn't start bludgeoning Nissan with the Model E just yet. LEAF exists, Model E is words. Given that by all accounts we won't be getting our reserved Model X for at least another year and a half (if we're lucky), I wouldn't expect Model E in competitive numbers for at least 3 years. And then we'll see what the price/performance point really is. I do think eventually Nissan has to up their game but for now they are the only game in town for a reasonably capable and affordable 50-state BEV. I'm kind of hoping for a significant update for 2015 when my lease expires, but I'm not holding my breath. I'll probably lease another LEAF at that point, hopefully with the heat-resistant batteries fully rolled out. All in all I'm rather pleased with our LEAF. Aside from fixing the degradation problem I'd hope for better suspension. The form factor is actually pretty good for what I need.
palmermd
Well-known member
I did not realize that Mr. Gordon-Levitt said so much. This thread is a 4 page summary on his comments?
mitch672
Well-known member
palmermd said:
Yep, it's gone off the rails for sure. The whole EV conversation on the LLS was about 20 seconds
evnow
Well-known member
Actually I figured it would cost me a lot more than $60k.dhanson865 said:
Model S is essentially a land barge. It doesn't easily fit in my garage. So, I've to sell our house and buy a new one (something Mitch suggested when I complained about the size
) - and you know how much that would cost.Berlino
Well-known member
dgpcolorado said:
iirc, that Phoenix LEAF was an early MY13 one and there's a chance its battery was manufactured before Nissan tweaked the electrolyte. Since we know improvements to the electrolyte can have a huge impact on battery life, I'm hopeful. Wishful thinking, perhaps.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
I think we need to get away from all these absolute statements here. Whether the LEAF works for any one individual is still very much a personal decision. In our area, it is very much regional and frequently distances are a stretch for the LEAF. Water, mountains, ferry terminals all make straight line routes pretty rare. On the map, Bellevue is a few miles from Seattle but depending on where you are, it could be 25 miles to get there. This is a common scenario.
So, everyone is partially right and partially wrong simply because there is no one right answer. There can be and there is several right ways to go. The LEAF does work for a lot but it also doesnt work for a lot.
When you boil it down, the greater the price, the smaller the market. It is a fallacy to say that everyone would pay more for more range. It is true to say a lot of people would gladly pay less for the same range.
So the real innovation is paying the same amount for more range but guaranteed there will still be a percentage of people that will still pay less for the same range and that percentage will be higher than the ones who opt to pay more for more range.
So, everyone is partially right and partially wrong simply because there is no one right answer. There can be and there is several right ways to go. The LEAF does work for a lot but it also doesnt work for a lot.
When you boil it down, the greater the price, the smaller the market. It is a fallacy to say that everyone would pay more for more range. It is true to say a lot of people would gladly pay less for the same range.
So the real innovation is paying the same amount for more range but guaranteed there will still be a percentage of people that will still pay less for the same range and that percentage will be higher than the ones who opt to pay more for more range.
mitch672
Well-known member
evnow said:Model S is essentially a land barge. It doesn't easily fit in my garage. So, I've to sell our house and buy a new one (something Mitch suggested when I complained about the size
I'm actually going to move into a house I inherited this year, and sell my existing house, my "landbarge" fits perfectly fine in the single car garage, but this is a house/garage that was built in 2009, the garage is 12' wide x 24' in length.
evnow
Well-known member
We have a 20'x20' "2 car" garage. In our street we are probably the only ones who actually park both the cars in the garage - rest of them use the garage to keep worthless junk and park the cars outsidemitch672 said:
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