All Blink installs on hold because of LADWP???

[TomT]

I have absolutely NO intent of signing the new agreement after the fact. Here is my response to them:


Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 2:29 PM
To: EVP Support
Subject: RE: LADWP Residential Participation Agreement - Signature Required: LAR-0028

Ummm... I took delivery of my Leaf and had the Blink installed four months ago...
Therefore, I will work under the assumption that this agreement was sent to me in error and does not apply to me.

Tom

 

[waynor]

Wow, am I glad I found this thread. I received the email a couple days ago and was wondering what I was going to do, but now I know: nothing. My Blink was installed late April and passed the required inspections. We took delivery of our Leaf ("Edison" or "Ed" for short) on April 30. Walter Smith checked our install on May 3, and offered his opinion that we should look into a second meter (TOU), but NEVER said it was a requirement. He also said he thought I would now have to pay for the install of said meter.

After investigating the TOU meter and the DWP rate card, I concluded that for now I would stick with my single meter and the basic rate plan. Reardless of the installation cost, the additional $8 monthly fee plus subjecting our household to the higher rates during times of high demand, I decided to let things evolve and see what effect Edison has on our electricity charges. I should see my first 2-month bill around the second week of July. I can then compare it with the previous year to get a general idea of what the charging is costing me. Too bad I can't use the Blink's built-in software, but I can live with that.

My experience with DWP has not been pleasant. We have lived in our house on a 1/2 acre lot for over thirty years. In that time I have seen our rates go through the roof (in my opinion) and all efforts to curb consumption come to no good end. My water bills are killers with our large lots. So the DWP recommended I have a second meter installed to meter only the landscape usage as a method of reducing our bill. Made sense as that is where we get hammered in the summer months. What wasn't explained in detail was that the second meter would only help us reduce our sewer rates, rather than our actual water usage rates. That second meter should pay for itself in, oh, about another five years.

How bad are my DWP bills? Let's just say that summer bills can easily top $1,000.00. That's for two months for 2 people. So I have a problem believing anything DWP is going to do will work to my benefit. BTW, DWP is now petitioning for a 15% rate increase over the next three months. (That could be next three billing cycles)

So when I take everything into account, including the fact that we don't need to charge Edison every night, I am inclined to ignore that email and continue to monitor this thread. And I will let you know what the next bill looks like with the extra electricity for Edison.

BTW, did I mention how much I enjoy driving our Leaf? Love the handling and the smooth ride. Getting over range anxiety every time out on the road. Sorry I haven't had time to post more earlier, but things are a bit crazy around here lately. Right now we have four house guests and the temperature outside is over one hundred, but the air conditioner is keeping it pleasant inside. Wonder how much it would cost us if we were on TOU billing?

Best wishes to all you fellow Leafers. Can I say that?

Wayne Orr
feel free to email at [email protected] with personal comments or suggestions.

 

[thankyouOB]

Wow, am I glad I found this thread. I received the email a couple days ago and was wondering what I was going to do, but now I know: nothing. My Blink was installed late April and passed the required inspections. We took delivery of our Leaf ("Edison" or "Ed" for short) on April 30. Walter Smith checked our install on May 3, and offered his opinion that we should look into a second meter (TOU), but NEVER said it was a requirement. He also said he thought I would now have to pay for the install of said meter.

After investigating the TOU meter and the DWP rate card, I concluded that for now I would stick with my single meter and the basic rate plan. Reardless of the installation cost, the additional $8 monthly fee plus subjecting our household to the higher rates during times of high demand, I decided to let things evolve and see what effect Edison has on our electricity charges. I should see my first 2-month bill around the second week of July. I can then compare it with the previous year to get a general idea of what the charging is costing me. Too bad I can't use the Blink's built-in software, but I can live with that.

My experience with DWP has not been pleasant. We have lived in our house on a 1/2 acre lot for over thirty years. In that time I have seen our rates go through the roof (in my opinion) and all efforts to curb consumption come to no good end. My water bills are killers with our large lots. So the DWP recommended I have a second meter installed to meter only the landscape usage as a method of reducing our bill. Made sense as that is where we get hammered in the summer months. What wasn't explained in detail was that the second meter would only help us reduce our sewer rates, rather than our actual water usage rates. That second meter should pay for itself in, oh, about another five years.

How bad are my DWP bills? Let's just say that summer bills can easily top $1,000.00. That's for two months for 2 people. So I have a problem believing anything DWP is going to do will work to my benefit. BTW, DWP is now petitioning for a 15% rate increase over the next three months. (That could be next three billing cycles)

So when I take everything into account, including the fact that we don't need to charge Edison every night, I am inclined to ignore that email and continue to monitor this thread. And I will let you know what the next bill looks like with the extra electricity for Edison.

BTW, did I mention how much I enjoy driving our Leaf? Love the handling and the smooth ride. Getting over range anxiety every time out on the road. Sorry I haven't had time to post more earlier, but things are a bit crazy around here lately. Right now we have four house guests and the temperature outside is over one hundred, but the air conditioner is keeping it pleasant inside. Wonder how much it would cost us if we were on TOU billing?

Best wishes to all you fellow Leafers. Can I say that?

Wayne Orr
feel free to email at [email protected] with personal comments or suggestions.

I have one question:
Do you run an AC to cool your house?
If yes, then you have nothing to complain about with regard to your bill. LADWP has the lowest or among the very lowest rates in SoCal, prolly the state, prolly the country if you leave out TVA and the water-powered Northwest.
And your payback on the meter is five years? Then it is all in your pocket?

If you don't, I can't imagine how you get a 1k bill.

 

[LALeaf]

. . . prolly the state, prolly the country if you leave out TVA and the water-powered Northwest.
And your payback on the meter is five years? Then it is all in your pocket?

If you don't, I can't imagine how you get a 1k bill.

Prolly?

 

[91040]

it is absolutely true. LADWP does not care if you want to stay on whole house TOU with solar. They will give you the 2.5-cent discount.
Ecotality will allow you in the project with NO second meter for those people with SOLAR.
They understand fully that you cannot offset your charging with two TOU meters.
You have to insist, but you can get it.

Thank you, thankyouOB. I "insisted" and Ecotality's electric subcontractor installed the unit without the 2nd meter.

As to usage times, the Blink can verify that I charge 100% on the base rate, and Ecotality is able to share my data and ALL the data with LADWP. There is no issue there.

There is an issue. LADWP only trusts their own data not Ecotality's.

 

[TomT]

So it now appears that Ecotality does indeed intend to try and make previous installs of the Blink install a second meter, retroactively. Here is my thread with them on this:

From: Valerie Lecesse [mailto:[email protected]]
To: Tom
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 8:45 AM
Cc: Edward Blair
Subject: RE: LADWP Residential Participation Agreement - Signature Required: LAR-0028

Hi Tom,

I’m going to let our Project Manager answer your more specific questions. As this is a new process, and he just attended a high-level LADWP meeting, I would like those answers to come from him.

Eddie is out in the field today ~ please give him a couple of days to get back to you.

Ed? Tag you’re it!

Thank you,
Valerie Lecesse
Regional OA

------------------------------------------

From: Tom
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 5:09 PM
To: Valerie Lecesse
Subject: Re: LADWP Residential Participation Agreement - Signature Required: LAR-0028

Ok, so if I understand all of this correctly, when the dual meter head becomes available (which could be sometime with UL approval), you folks will then come back out and install it at no charge to me, correct?

Ironically, with the eight dollar a month second meter charge, I actually come out behind with a separate TOU on the EV...

One last thing: Now that ladwp is once again going to offer a pv rebate, I am considering installing solar. How would that affect all of this (tou, as you know, is bad economically with solar)?

Thanks,
Tom

----- Reply message -----
From: "Valerie Lecesse" <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:51 pm
Subject: LADWP Residential Participation Agreement - Signature Required: LAR-0028
To: "Tom"
Hi Tom,

Yes, all EV participants must have an EVSE TOU. I agree, the underground installs are expensive.

We’re asking our customers who have had the Blink installed to sign the RPA as we understand the expenses required.

However, even with the new RPA, you will not need to have the underground TOU installed until a dual-meter adapter is developed. The adapter will alleviate the high costs associated with underground pulls.

The RPA will just give us permission to wrap back around to this process, hard-wire your Blink (no cost) and install the dual meter.

Please let me know if you have any questions and I hope all is going well!

Sincerely,
Valerie Lecesse
Regional OA

======================================

From: Tom
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 1:56 PM
To: Valerie Lecesse
Subject: RE: LADWP Residential Participation Agreement - Signature Required: LAR-0028

Hi Valerie,

I’m a little confused on one point: Will this new agreement require that I then have a separate TOU meter installed for the EVSE? I have underground utilities here so the cost of such an installation is not feasible due to the extremely high cost.

Thanks,
Tom

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Valerie Lecesse [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 12:28 PM
To: tom
Subject: RE: LADWP Residential Participation Agreement - Signature Required: LAR-0028

Hi Tom,

We’re aware of that, however there have been changes to the project with regard to LADWP customers. This is a revised Residential Participation Agreement that will cover us, and you, regarding the changes.

Thank you,
Valerie Lecesse
Regional OA

________________________________________
From: Tom
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 2:28 PM
To: EV Project Support
Subject: RE: LADWP Residential Participation Agreement - Signature Required: LAR-0028

Ummm... I took delivery of my Leaf and had the Blink installed four months ago... Therefore I assume that this new agreement does not apply to me.

Tom

________________________________________
From: EVP Support [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 2:27 PM
To: tom
Subject: LADWP Residential Participation Agreement - Signature Required: LAR-0028


Dear TOM,
As requested in our previous communication to you, here is the revised Residential Participation Agreement (RPA), which will allow ECOtality to move forward with its involvement in the LADWP “Charge Up LA!” program. We ask that you read and then electronically sign the revised RPA. If more information is required from you, an ECOtality representative will be in touch.
As a participant, you have or will be receiving the DC Fast Charge inlet on your LEAF at no cost to you, a free home-charging unit, and other installation incentives.
We would like to thank you for helping us move forward in the study that supports and promotes Electric Vehicles. Once again, thank you for your interest in the EV Project.
Please provide your electronic signature by clicking on the link below or copying and pasting the following link into your browser:
http://www.etec.nissanusa.com/participant-agreement/index.php?SalesLogixID=Q6UJ9A000FGN


For support or questions regarding the EV Project, please contact the Blink Contact Center:

1-888-998-BLINK
[email protected]

Thank you.

Best Regards,
The EV Project Team

 

[SharonaLA]

It is interesting and enlightening to read your e-mail exchange. Let me know what Eddie says. So far, I haven't heard more from them since I refused to sign the revised agreement.

 

[TomT]

I'll let you know what I find out. I am planning to refuse to sign the new agreement regardless however. They don't legally have a leg to stand on in attempting to make the new agreement and requirement retroactive...

Tom

It is interesting and enlightening to read your e-mail exchange. Let me know what Eddie says. So far, I haven't heard more from them since I refused to sign the revised agreement.

 

[91040]

Mogur- Why is TOU bad with solar electric? You produce solar electricity during the expensive hours. If you produce more than you are using, DWP credits you at the higher rate and later you draw from the grid at the lower rate. I do see the problem if your solar production doesn't cover your peak-hour usage.

This Ecotality/DWP thing is a mess. It has been going on for at least 2 1/2 months now but still hasn't been resolved. It remains to be seen how this dual meter adapter will be handled: what the installation cost will be; who pays; whether there is a monthly fee for it; whether it is subtractive, etc... Depending on how things settle out, Ecotality may have many customers opting out of the program or being dropped. How does that help anyone?

 

[TomT]

Because with a two meters and a separate TOU meter for the EVSE, you are being charged for power from the grid for your EVSE all the time. A single TOU meter would likely be fine, however, if it supports generation. Perhaps some of the solar experts on here would like to chime in on that.

The only thing I do know about the dual meter adapter is that it will not be subtractive. LADWP's billing system can not handle that.

Mogur- Why is TOU bad with solar electric? You produce solar electricity during the expensive hours. If you produce more than you are using, DWP credits you at the higher rate and later you draw from the grid at the lower rate. I do see the problem if your solar production doesn't cover your peak-hour usage.

This Ecotality/DWP thing is a mess. It has been going on for at least 2 1/2 months now but still hasn't been resolved. It remains to be seen how this dual meter adapter will be handled: what the installation cost will be; who pays; whether there is a monthly fee for it; whether it is subtractive, etc... Depending on how things settle out, Ecotality may have many customers opting out of the program or being dropped. How does that help anyone?

 

[Kataphn]

Here is what I wrote to the EV project in response to being asked to sign a new agreement:
Hi,
I already have the Blink installed and signed the agreement a long time ago. I am assuming this email does not apply to me.

Here is the response that I got:

You are correct. I apologize for the errant email.
EVP Support


I am saving this email!

 

[thankyouOB]

The problem with a second TOU meter if you have solar:

It is a second service and
--has its own $8 a month service charge, which LADWP may waive
--you cannot use the solar revenue from your house meter to offset the charges for your car.

As a result, you want a whole house TOU meter ONLY.
LADWP currently allows this.

*Ecotality cannot force you to sign the new agreement. Perhaps, DWP can force you to get a second TOU meter, as they make the rules for power supply in LA. It may be retroactive, too, I assume. But it has to be lawful.

*Currently, LADWP has told me numerous times that I am OK with a whole house TOU meter for my solar and my EV.
They will not require me to get a second meter to get the 2.5-cent discount for EV, as long as I have a TOU meter, at least one--it can be whole house or on the EVSE.
With either arrangement, you can discount up to 500 kWh of actual base-time electric use by 2.5 cents, bringing the summer rate to 8.3 cents and the rest-of-year rate to 8.7 cents--for that portion of your bill.

 

[91040]

As a result, you want a whole house TOU meter ONLY.
LADWP currently allows this.

Ecotality cannot force you to sign the new agreement. Perhaps, DWP can, as they make the rules for power supply in LA. It may be retroactive, too, I assume. But it has to be a lawful.

I thought mogur was saying that TOU was not good with solar electric at all. Didn't realize he was referring to the 2nd meter.

Being persnickity, DWP can't make you sign Ecotality's agreement. They can draft new rules and rates that may accomplish the same thing though.

Seems we just wait until Ecotality and DWP finalize what they require and then react. Since we don't have any input into these discussions, if the requirements are disadvantageous, we can drop out of the program or be removed. It is Ecotatlity's move.

 

[thankyouOB]

to make things clear, I am updating my comment above.
see *

 

[91040]

*Currently, LADWP has told me numerous times that I am OK with a whole house TOU meter for my solar and my EV.
They will not require me to get a second meter to get the 2.5-cent discount for EV, as long as I have a TOU meter, at least one--it can be whole house or on the EVSE.
With either arrangement, you can discount up to 500 kWh of actual base-time electric use by 2.5 cents, bringing the summer rate to 8.3 cents and the rest-of-year rate to 8.7 cents--for that portion of your bill.

The issue is not the DWP options but with the requirements of the EV project. Whether DWP is requiring the changes in Ecotality's program or Ecotality is trying to tap the new DWP money stream is not clear. What is clear is that this is causing a fair amount of problems for the participants of the EV project. What a great incentive for encouraging the use electric cars here in LA! (Where is a sarcastic emoticon?)

 

[91040]

Maybe this explains the game being played by the big guys:
http://www.plugincars.com/meters-look-put-smarts-ev-charging-107360.html

Who controls the smart grid controls the world!

 

[thankyouOB]

. . . prolly the state, prolly the country if you leave out TVA and the water-powered Northwest.
And your payback on the meter is five years? Then it is all in your pocket?

If you don't, I can't imagine how you get a 1k bill.

Prolly?

short for probably

 

[LALeaf]

Thanks, that's what I kind of thought. Since your posting, I have noticed 'Prolly' used a lot. Strange that I never noticed it before, but it must have been out there.

 

[TomT]

Here is what I heard back from Eddie... Left unsaid is what would happen financially if the install cost was over $2,000, which is almost a certainty in my area with underground utilities. Regardless, I am, of course, still going to politely decline to install a second meter... Legally, I don't believe that have a leg to stand on in trying to make a new agreement retroactive to previous installs.


Hi Tom,
We will eventually need to come back out & install a 2nd meter that will tie into your existing panel even though your EVSE was installed prior to the current LADWP rebate process. It is not a duel meter adaptor but a new meter can. This will be at no cost to you. As far as the solar questions that should be directed to LADWP. We will need for all LADWP customers to sign the new RPA that has been sent out in order for us {ECOtality} to collect the rebates that we have covered. Thank you for your cooperation on this & please feel free to call me anytime to discuss.

Regards

Eddie Blair
Ecotality North America
L.A. Regional Field Services Manager
Mobile: 213-507-9046
[email protected]

 

[91040]

Here is what I heard back from Eddie... Left unsaid is what would happen financially if the install cost was over $2,000, which is almost a certainty in my area with underground utilities. Regardless, I am, of course, still going to politely decline to install a second meter...

Hi Tom,
We will eventually need to come back out & install a 2nd meter that will tie into your existing panel even though your EVSE was installed prior to the current LADWP rebate process. It is not a duel meter adaptor but a new meter can. This will be at no cost to you. As far as the solar questions that should be directed to LADWP. We will need for all LADWP customers to sign the new RPA that has been sent out in order for us {ECOtality} to collect the rebates that we have covered. Thank you for your cooperation on this & please feel free to call me anytime to discuss.

Regards

Eddie Blair
Ecotality North America
L.A. Regional Field Services Manager
Mobile: 213-507-9046
[email protected]

Clear as mud. Unless something has changed:
1. Ecotality is not giving a $3200 install credit. If you used your $1200 credit on the original install, you get $800 more by signing over the $2K DWP rebate and agreeing to the new conditions of the agreement.
2. That $800 would not be enough to cover a very simple 2nd meter install with overhead service.
3. The solar electric problem has not been solved.

To quote Han Solo: " I have a bad feeling about this."