An Argument That We Need To Kill

[DANandNAN]

As for the main issue discused: public chargers - PHEV vs BEV its a hard issue with current limited infrastructure. And while we all play nice now with cards, there is going to be some a-hole who won't and keep their PiP plugged in for 9 hours straight on the only EVSE there. And saying NOT to rely on public charging on e BEV defeats some of the purpose with that. The arguement always favors PHEV unfortuately:

BEV - public charge as an opportunity (because its there) if free, or will pay in an emergency (too costly to pay if you don't need the charge)
PHEV - public charging is always cheaper (either free or paid) than gas, never need as an emergency.

So when a BEV needs it, PHEVs are using chargers to save money (or environment if you want to look at it from a non-selfish point). There is no reason ever for a PHEV to skip a charger, but their need will never be as great as a BEV that absolutely needs it to get home. How do you balance that?

Honestly I wish there was an "interface" on the public charging (or via mobile app!). Instead of leaving cards or numbers, because X person is registered through that system (like blink) you can use the app or screen interface to email/text (however signed up they are) and send a message to person charging asked if they could move. This way it could hide contact information, but you could still contact said person. While it won't solve all issues, its a step in the right direct I think.

Honestly, I think the greater issue isn't a PiP taking 9 hours in a slot, but chargers being ICEd which is more common than them being taken by plug-ins, at least, here in Dallas.

Getting back on topic would be great.

The bottom line is for now there are a limited number of chargers available - but there is no need to act like a petulant child running around saying "the stations are MINE you can only use them if I don't want to!" (I'm not speaking to you Pipecil) I'm sorry, but that's not going to be how things work out. At least not with the Fed subsidized stations. The stations are there for all cars that can use them. They are first come, first served and then get out.

How do I balance a BEV owners desire (not need) to charge their BEV over my desire to remain EV? Pretty simply. I don't want to burn gas anymore than anyone else here, but I planned ahead. The infrastructure isn't there - yet. I bought a car that has a backup generator, but that doesn't mean I should be forced to buy gasoline - does it? Will there be discounted gas for Volt's paid for because BEV need to charge? And I know I'm not alone here when it comes to having a back-up as most BEV owners own/rent/lease or borrow an ICE when they "need" it.

Folks shouldn't dream up punishments for people who bought vehicles equipped with a back-up plan. They should just develop their own back-up plan (besides Nissan towing) and work on the developing the infrastructure. So far I've made about 50 phone calls and emails - and I've had no successes. But, at least I'm trying instead of whining and calling for entitlements (again, Pipecil I'm not speaking to you).

You probably shouldn't get a leaf if that's how you feel.

Huh? Why? Because I'm going into it with my eyes wide open, knowing that:

• I have to share?
  Nissan didn't put the chargers in just for me
  the government isn't going to support my EV alone
  charging stations are not welfare, I'm not entitled to use them
  I need to have a plan
  I need to not drive further than the range available without a plan
  if I don't have a plan, I need to be patient
  that I'm not an EV God and all other EV will not bow down to me.

You probably shouldn't have bought a Leaf if that's how you feel. I'll buy knowing the pitfalls of a Range-Limited BEV and won't whine when/if things don't go my way.

Most everyone here owns/leases/rents/borrows and ICE when they need it. RLBEV are not an ideal car YET for every situation. The good news is things are getting better. Until then get use to it and you'll be happier.

 

[DANandNAN]

So far I've made about 50 phone calls and emails - and I've had no successes.

Sucks being pimped by the company you just gave $40K to, huh? Little hint but GM is rowing in the opposite direction as you.

Huh? What are you talking about? I've NEVER called GM - I've been contacted about 3-4 times by our salesman and our Volt Adviser to say hi, but I've never asked GM for a charging station.

Wait! Are you calling Nissan? Is that why you assumed that I was calling GM? You really have to get off the entitlement thing. You knowingly bought a RLBEV, if you want to expand it's usefulness get on the phone, fill out comment cards, mention stations to the manager.

The contacts I was referring to are with businesses and venues, trying to convince them that it's in their best interest to add charging stations. The one mall that has them around here has taken a fairly large amount of money from us since they put one in - and hopefully the other malls, stores, zoo, & venues we visit are taking notice.

So, what have you done besides sitting on a web forum using cool words like "pimped"?

 

[DANandNAN]

Well I guess I was partially wrong. People just assumed Costco was not run by idiots and just assumed they were going to be upgrading the chargers. http://greentechnolog.com/2010/09/post_112.html

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere else someone giving the same reasoning as I repeated. They did get a new CEO in 2011.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/new-ceo-expected-to-continue-the-costco-way-2011-09-01

Have you written to Costco? Several Volt owners have and the more folks that do the better.

It really doesn't make sense to me. We spend about $150-200 twice a month. That's $1,800-2,400 a year. Based on observations there's at least 10-15 EV's around here. I would think that at least half have a membership to some store. If there's 10 EV's that could be $18,000/year. Seems like a no brainer to me. But, Costco must have run the numbers at some point - I do wonder if they've rerun them now that EV are more popular.

Whoever installs an EVSE gets our business and I'm sure we're not alone. That's what businesses need to realize which is why it's good to contact them.

 

[KJD]

So, what have you done besides sitting on a web forum using cool words like "pimped"?

This question was directed at other people, but I will answer it anyhow. It is a good question to ask.

Before any factory plugin cars were being sold, I built 3 different EV conversions over 5 years time. These home built EV's have now been sold and I am driving a LEAF every day to work.

I started an EV interest group in my home town and scheduled monthly meetings for 4 years.

Have done multiple interviews with newspapers and radio stations trying to get the message out about EV's of all kinds.

Talked to multiple store managers (including local Costco) about installing EV charge stations.

Went to city council meeting and spoke about the need for EV charging stations in the city.

I have a new meeting scheduled for this week with my city council person on how best to expand the number of charge stations in the city.

Most of the time my requests fall on deaf ears. I would be interested in hearing from people who have done this before, what is the best way to ask local elected officials to support EV charging stations.

My basic thought is that we need enough charging stations to serve ALL vehicles with plugs.

KJD

 

[TomT]

You are assuming that EV owners would not shop at Costco because they don't have EVSE's, or shop somewhere else because they do. In my case, I shop at Costco, and will continue to regardless of their deploying EVSEs, because they have the best customer service bar none (they've gone above and beyond numerous times for me), excellent prices, and they treat and reward their workers far better than any other major retailer. That to me, trumps ANY EVSE considerations.

It really doesn't make sense to me. We spend about $150-200 twice a month. That's $1,800-2,400 a year. Based on observations there's at least 10-15 EV's around here. I would think that at least half have a membership to some store. If there's 10 EV's that could be $18,000/year. Seems like a no brainer to me. But, Costco must have run the numbers at some point - I do wonder if they've rerun them now that EV are more popular.

 

[DANandNAN]

So, what have you done besides sitting on a web forum using cool words like "pimped"?

This question was directed at other people, but I will answer it anyhow. It is a good question to ask.

Before any factory plugin cars were being sold, I built 3 different EV conversions over 5 years time. These home built EV's have now been sold and I am driving a LEAF every day to work.

I started an EV interest group in my home town and scheduled monthly meetings for 4 years.

Have done multiple interviews with newspapers and radio stations trying to get the message out about EV's of all kinds.

Talked to multiple store managers (including local Costco) about installing EV charge stations.

Went to city council meeting and spoke about the need for EV charging stations in the city.

I have a new meeting scheduled for this week with my city council person on how best to expand the number of charge stations in the city.

Most of the time my requests fall on deaf ears. I would be interested in hearing from people who have done this before, what is the best way to ask local elected officials to support EV charging stations.

My basic thought is that we need enough charging stations to serve ALL vehicles with plugs.

KJD

Wow, that's quite a resume of builds.

Sorry to hear you're running into the same types of managers I am. I'll go back to my earlier post

I'd really like to see Chevy, Nissan, Ford and the rest to team up (or do it individually) and go to restaurants, malls, zoos, museums, city centers and so on and install chargers. Don't wait on the government to do it, just pair up with an EVSE manufacturer and get on it! It's good advertising, a green initiative and will build the infrastructure. The lack of infrastructure is a big reason why we bought a Volt instead of a Leaf, and why we're waiting for the 2013 Leaf and it's 6.6 charger (no DC in the state AFAIK).

Sorry, I didn't finish my point. These companies have a vested interest in EV success, and they have employees dedicated to advertising and getting things done. They're pro's at this, they should be helping.

 

[DANandNAN]

It really doesn't make sense to me. We spend about $150-200 twice a month. That's $1,800-2,400 a year. Based on observations there's at least 10-15 EV's around here. I would think that at least half have a membership to some store. If there's 10 EV's that could be $18,000/year. Seems like a no brainer to me. But, Costco must have run the numbers at some point - I do wonder if they've rerun them now that EV are more popular.

You are assuming that EV owners would not shop at Costco because they don't have EVSE's, or shop somewhere else because they do. In my case, I shop at Costco, and will continue to regardless of their deploying EVSEs, because they have the best customer service bar none, excellent prices, and they treat and reward their workers far better than any other major retailer. That to me, trumps ANY EVSE considerations.

Actually, what I'm assuming is that most EV folks are more like me, that they don't care that much and will give their business to the companies that support their beliefs (or at least provides them with a charge).

We've switched malls, switched favorite lunch spots and would switch warehouse stores to support companies that support EV.

Support companies that support EV!

 

[GRA]

So, what have you done besides sitting on a web forum using cool words like "pimped"?

This question was directed at other people, but I will answer it anyhow. It is a good question to ask.

Before any factory plugin cars were being sold, I built 3 different EV conversions over 5 years time. These home built EV's have now been sold and I am driving a LEAF every day to work.

I started an EV interest group in my home town and scheduled monthly meetings for 4 years.

Have done multiple interviews with newspapers and radio stations trying to get the message out about EV's of all kinds.

Talked to multiple store managers (including local Costco) about installing EV charge stations.

Went to city council meeting and spoke about the need for EV charging stations in the city.

I have a new meeting scheduled for this week with my city council person on how best to expand the number of charge stations in the city.

Most of the time my requests fall on deaf ears. I would be interested in hearing from people who have done this before, what is the best way to ask local elected officials to support EV charging stations.

My basic thought is that we need enough charging stations to serve ALL vehicles with plugs.

KJD

I don't have anything like your resume promoting EVs, but one thing I've been trying to keep in mind before I put the effort in is whether I could make a business case for installing them in a particular location. For instance, my city has previously had a couple of RAV4 EVs with installed EVSEs in a public garage, now has at least one Leaf, and of their public parking garages and lots, one is two blocks from me, serves the restaurant district and the theater multiplex, and would be the best place for me to charge an EV (since I rent and don't have anywhere to conveniently charge it, although I could jury rig L1). While these are nice local attractions, none of them are so special as to make us a regional/tourist attraction - go ten miles in any direction and you can find the same, so the effective customer radius is only 5 miles. I just don't see that anyone local is likely to pay higher prices to charge downtown when they can just do so at home for far less.

Similarly, several months back I was all hot to get Yosemite NP and their concession operator to start installing L1s if not L2s, to allow BEVs and PHEVs to charge. But the PHEVs don't really need it, and as a practical matter until L3s are installed en route there won't be any significant number of BEVs visiting. In short, I've concluded that formal arrangements for EVSEs in the park are currently premature. The same goes for Lake Tahoe, although the case against is a little weaker there.

In other areas with high tourist/regional traffic it's a different matter, and I've been happy to push EVSEs to governments/businesses.

 

[CarZin]

As someone deep into a lot of PEV committees, and a Volt owner, a few comments...

In my region, I consider it a duty to plug my Volt in whenever I see a charging station. It is important, in the early phases of electrification, that people seeing these stations being used by ALL forms of electric vehicles, not just BEVs. The WORST thing you can do for the EV movement with regards to station availability is for them to sit unused. Town managers are running reports on these stations all the time, and demand will drive more installations. If we took your short sighted view that you might be inconvenienced from time to time by not having a spot, and only allowed BEV to park in EVSE spots, they would be vacate 99% of the time, and there would be NO demand to build more. It is in your best interest for these stations to be clogged with electric vehicles as often as possible.

Secondly, it is part of the goal of electric vehicles to reduce tail pipe emissions. I suspect most Leaf owners are not driving to a location that they know they can't make it back home without a charge. You're guaranteed to be emissions free. A Volt owner, or PIP owner, can't make that claim. If your goal is to reduce green house emission, then you should actually see the PHEV as having PRIORITY over the stations, EXCEPT when getting home for you requires a charge. This is where common courtesy comes into play, and if I were parking in a highly coveted EVSE spot, I would make a sign to unplug me if you need the juice. For most early adopters, this courtesy is known and expected.

I agree, the PIP owners are going to be the WORST EV owners out there. They have a (in my opinion) poor representation of an electric vehicle, and based on my evidence, the least amount of knowledge on the issues surrounding electrification, BUT they are still electric cars, and their adoption will help the movement. Even if you have to grin and bear it if they happen to take your charging spot from time to time.

My only anger comes from people parking their gas vehicles in electric spots. That needs to be where your anger to vented. Not at owners of PHEV.

 

[TomT]

Well then, I guess I simply prove that all EV folks are not necessarily like you... I have many other beliefs and cares that are equal to or more important than simply providing charges...

Actually, what I'm assuming is that most EV folks are more like me, that they don't care that much and will give their business to the companies that support their beliefs (or at least provides them with a charge).

 

[CarZin]

I definitely favor businesses that have charging stations. I have switched movie theaters and our grocery shopping to different places because those businesses put in chargers. Since I was helping Progress Energy find other candidates, I also got to learn which places are anti EV, and avoid using them.

 

[DANandNAN]

Actually, what I'm assuming is that most EV folks are more like me, that they don't care that much and will give their business to the companies that support their beliefs (or at least provides them with a charge).

Well then, I guess I simply prove that all EV folks are not necessarily like you... I have many other beliefs and cares that are equal to or more important than simply providing charges...

That's what I said, isn't it? Obviously you're not alone. It's funny, but I think that my willingness to choose where I go based on the EVSE makes us more green than you :lol:

Anyway, I will continue to give my money to those companies whose beliefs are in line with my views and avoid those that oppose them. Just as CarZin and others have written, if we don't support them now, there's no incentive for them to continue and there's no incentive for companies to install them. The more choices available the more folks that will switch to EV which will lessen the amount of oil burned.

Guy, don't give up on those venues that aren't accessible by the Leaf, there are still other vehicles that will benefit and burn less oil. Eventually the infrastructure will be there and you'll use them too.

 

[TRONZ]

So, what have you done

Are you sure somewhere in my 2000 or so posts you didnt see me advocating for EV's and infrastructure somewhere??? No advocacy threads started, surveys of charging sites or links to the CA Gov or Fed DOE... nothing, huh? Guess I'll have to try harder.

And before you keep stepping in it, you might want to educate yourself about the difference between an Entitlement, an Incentive (what I advocate) and a GM Bailout vehicle (what your driving).

Trying to stay OT, the rights of EV's and PHEV's to public charging is not in dispute TODAY. The real issue is that infrastructure will likely become very thin relative to the number of PHEV's TOMORROW. This will put the CA CARB ZEV (BEV) Mandate in jeopardy and a new level of Incentives will be required. No dreaming involved, it's just how CA does things.

 

[CarZin]

I think you vastly overestimate the number of charging stations that are going to be needed. I sit on monthly panel discussions with major stakeholders (Nissan, GM, Ford), and we've had a few studies presented to us regarding the need for public charging. If you ignore the studies by the actual charging station manufacturers (which are heavily biased towards a lot of charging stations), the amount of charging stations likely needed will be a fraction of the number of EVs on the road, not a multiple of. As I mentioned before, there is actually been some discussion that in their studies, BEV were more likely to NOT need to charge, given their extended range, and were less dependent on EVSE availability.

I know about 10 Leaf owners. Most are happily driving with little to no access to an EVSE. Most that are charging at work are connected off 120V sockets. I think the proof is already out there that plugging into an EVSE, while essential to some, is no essential for the vast majority of people to drive their electric vehicles.

I was going to pull up the presentation from our basecamp, but I am having some access problems, and will have to relay that later.

 

[DANandNAN]

So, what have you done

Are you sure somewhere in my 2000 or so posts you didnt see me advocating for EV's and infrastructure somewhere??? No advocacy threads started, surveys of charging sites or links to the CA Gov or Fed DOE... nothing, huh? Guess I'll have to try harder.

And before you keep stepping in it, you might want to educate yourself about the difference between an Entitlement, an Incentive (what I advocate) and a GM Bailout vehicle (what your driving).

Trying to stay OT, the rights of EV's and PHEV's to public charging is not in dispute TODAY. The real issue is that infrastructure will likely become very thin relative to the number of PHEV's TOMORROW. This will put the CA CARB ZEV (BEV) Mandate in jeopardy and a new level of Incentives will be required. No dreaming involved, it's just how CA does things.

Do you think I have the desire or time to read through your posts? I asked a question, post an answer or will the answer be soooooo long that it won't fit in a single thread? If you've made calls, say you've made calls. If you've written letters or met with decision makers, say so. But, don't expect anyone to research you.

You believe that you're entitled to step in front of any other EV because you drive a RLBEV. Your sense of entitlement is not based on an incentive, because no one told you this would happen when you bought your Leaf. An incentive would be a store offering free charging for their customers. Or even, as in your dream, California passing a rule that public stations would give priority to RLBEV. That's an incentive for new purchasers, not for current owners. For current owners that would just be a perk. Your purchasing a RLBEV instead of a EREV, PiP or PHEV didn't have any incentives besides the tax credit. What you're feeling is entitled (and probably some fear of being turtled) to cut in line with those you see as less green than you.

Speaking of CARB, as I understand it the new rules will allow any EV to be classified as a ZEV as long as it's EV only range is 50 miles as rated by the EPA. All that requires is a software change to allow the Volt to use more of it's battery (it currently uses about 65-70% to get 40).

And, yes, the "rights" are currently being threatened "TODAY". This thread was started by coolfilmmaker (?) because a PiP told him he should have bought a vehicle with better range if he didn't want to wait. He started a thread about how public stations should not be for PHEV use. Your posts here have said the same thing, and that you didn't think you should wait, and that you were entitled to cut.

 

[DANandNAN]

As I mentioned before, there is actually been some discussion that in their studies, BEV were more likely to NOT need to charge, given their extended range, and were less dependent on EVSE availability.

That's a great point. With our current plan to by a Leaf with the 6.6 we have figured that a lunch stop at a restaurant with a L2 will be all we need to complete our day on the weekends and during the week we should be fine charging at home most of the time.

I would love to have choices though, and it would encourage more people to buy (and stop burning oil), so the more stations the better.

 

[TomT]

That is likely true. Being the greenest around is not at the top of my priority list...

It's funny, but I think that my willingness to choose where I go based on the EVSE makes us more green than you :lol:

 

[DANandNAN]

It's funny, but I think that my willingness to choose where I go based on the EVSE makes us more green than you :lol:

That is likely true. Being the greenest around is not at the top of my priority list...

Mine either, but it's up there, way above CS in stores where I barely interact with their CS people

 

[Herm]

A positive Project Better Place video, a good outlook on other cars:

"We don't want to put an end to THIS, or THIS, THIS or even THIS, we just want to end the world dependency on THIS."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI1fcKUiVLo&feature=player_embedded" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TRONZ]

Well here is an interesting question; You come across four cars pulled up to a single public EVSE. A PIP a Volt a LEAF and an iMiEV. They each have their charge ports open but whoever vacated the EVSE did not do the proper thing and plug in the "next" car. Which one would each of us plug in first?

I say iMiEV.