Are you sorry you bought a Leaf?

[Googler]

You still haven't answered whether you can charge at work, which another poster said you could do. A lot of your minor criticisms are valid, but I am still unable to figure out why the Leaf won't work for your commute.

Nobody has a dedicated EV space at work, so the answer is "maybe". I've already seen seven different Leafs at work, and about the same number of Volts and even more Teslas (plus a couple of Tangos and RAV-4s). There are also hundreds of Priuses, many of whom will be switching to EVs. In other words, the charging spaces will soon be oversubscribed.

The range is such that I probably can't charge at work, drive home, back to work, and home again. That makes charging at work much less useful since I can't rely upon it. I gave up sleeping in the office years ago.

It's not that I "can't make it work". I could make the bus or a bicycle work if I had to, but I'd have to give up seeing my family. The question is how much a consumer has to rearrange their life around a car. It's things like this that will inhibit mass adoption of EVs. The current range on the Leaf is very marginal for a majority of consumers.

 

[BlueSL]

Googler, you may be my favorite MNLer. You did not crawl into a shell when the utopians began to criticize your desire to have the Leaf serve your everyday needs. That is what it will take for EVs to extend beyond the fringes.

As employers go, your company is the exception when it comes to having a bank of chargers in a parking lot. And yes, that parking lot will fill with EVs, because that's who works at Google. Almost no company in SF will be offering its employees a similar perk, because there are very few single-user buildings.

As for the Bay Area and its HOV lanes, yes they move FAST.

 

[Boomer23]

The current range on the Leaf is very marginal for a majority of consumers.

I hear what you're saying, but you have no way of knowing that your last statement is true. I'd say that a majority of the consumers I know, and I used to manage 300 people at a large hospital, would find that a LEAF would work very well as one of their two or more cars because their commutes would fit well with the car's range.

 

[walterbays]

Yeah, I won't exceed 70mph either. If they want to go faster and I don't feel like getting out of the HOV lane (which is happening increasingly)....just too f**in' bad!

First let me say I don't feel very sympthetic to Googler's plight. He could have known before he ordered that the car didn't fit his driving needs. I wouldn't have ordered if I hadn't had an ample range margin over my typical commuting needs. And it seemed clear to me from his first postings that he was very skeptical of the car he was buying.

Secondly though, I appreciate Googler's reports. The second wave of EV purchasers will not know as much about driving efficiency as the early adopters - not even as much as I now (think I) know after reading this forum for several months. Googler's experiences will not be unique, and they may help Nissan avoid similar bad customer experiences. Also, I think it was Googler who contributed the code to link Google search into this forum, providing the first and only practical means of searching postings. A huge thank-you for that!

Thirdly, this HOV issue is a big one. It looks like the solo carpool sticker may have been the big attraction that led Googler to gamble that the car would meet his needs despite all indications it might not do so. Many people are likely to do the same. But the speed limit is 65. And typical carpool lane speeds are 80. And speed enforcement ranges from sporadic to non-existent. Getting a ticket is like getting struck by lightning. So what is Googler to do?

1. Drive with traffic. Get almost to work quickly. Run dead at the side of the road.

2. Drive in the slow lane. Get to work with ample range margin, but as slowly as ever, and with no benefit of the carpool sticker.

3. Drive the speed limit in the HOV lane, as mwalsh (almost) suggests. Some other drivers will just slow down. Others will pass when they get a chance at the lane openings. Many will get angry. Some will get angry at EV's in general and demand that their legislators take actions to harm EV's. Some will get angry at mwalsh in particular. They will tailgate. They may cause accidents. Road rage is a real danger. Sometimes, rarely, road ragers even carry guns.

None of these options looks particularly good to me. What I'd prefer is a European solution that I think a great majority of Americans would not accept: speed limit cameras. For the first few months of operation ticket just the cars driving over 81mph - but ticket 100% of them, not the 0.001% of speeders who now receive tickets at random. The next month ticket cars driving over 76mph. Then 71mph. Then 66mph. Finally everyone drives the speed limit, gets to work one or two minutes later, and saves a lot of kWh and barrels of oil.

 

[Googler]

I don't often observe people going 80 in the HOV lanes where I live. The usual routine is 65-70, and that's what I have been driving for years in the HOV lane. At that speed I get 50mpg in the Prius.

I'm not saying that my circumstances are the same as everyone else's - they clearly aren't. Nissan has done their own market evaluation to see how big the market is and how they should design and market the car. After doing this analysis, they chose a particular configuration which isn't very useful for me. I have commented to some people that I would have happily paid an extra $3K for a 32kwh battery, no XM, no Carwings, and no navigation (which is useless for my commute car). That would be FAR more desirable than the damn L2 EVSE that I ended up deciding not to purchase. For me it's a commute car, plain and simple. The back seat is also just extra weight to haul around and I have other cars for other tasks. I expect that there will eventually be a spectrum of different cars to match different price points and different requirements, but the current Leaf was the topic of the question in this thread. The question was not "should we all convince others to buy a Leaf?". The question was "Are YOU sorry that YOU bought a Leaf?". I don't really regret it that much, but it's really marginal for me because of the design characteristics I have mentioned.

 

[LEAFfan]

3. Drive the speed limit in the HOV lane, as mwalsh (almost) suggests. Some other drivers will just slow down. Others will pass when they get a chance at the lane openings. Many will get angry. Some will get angry at EV's in general and demand that their legislators take actions to harm EV's. Some will get angry at mwalsh in particular. They will tailgate. They may cause accidents. Road rage is a real danger. Sometimes, rarely, road ragers even carry guns.

Trying to put the element of fear into it is a way for people to do something they shouldn't have to do. There is absolutely no problem with driving 65 in the HOV when the speed limit is 65. The HOV is to reduce pollution;it's not a speed lane. EVs aren't the only cars going 65 in a 65, so I highly doubt anyone is going to pick on EVs by writing their legislators. We have laws for 'tailgating' and 'aggressive driving'. I just turn on my rear lights for idiots that try to tailgate me. If people would learn to allow more time and leave 15 minutes earlier than usual, they wouldn't have to speed and endanger every other car and person on the road. If you want to buy into fear mongering ("sometimes road ragers even carry guns"), do so, but I'm not going to be intimidated by bully drivers. That's their problem.

 

[LEAFfan]

The current range on the Leaf is very marginal for a majority of consumers.

Actually, the majority of consumers/drivers drive less than 40 miles a day. At least 90% drive less than 100 miles a day.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Drive in the HOV lane in places where it is a real advantage at the speed of traffic in the lane. Over the entirety of your commute, there may be areas where the normal traffic (non-HOV) is going at 45+ MPH, pop into the normal traffic for a few miles of that to extend your range and save it for where it will help you most - in the HOV lane when the normal traffic is at a dead stop. I've done this commuting in my EV1 and my RAV4 EV from south San Jose to Palo Alto, the ranges of those cars is close to the LEAF.

If you work at Google, they are very forward on renewable and sustainable transportation. As we have long range EVs - Teslas that don't need to charge at work (unless their commute is over 200 miles and/or they drive at TWICE the speed of the HOV traffic ), and Plug In Hybrids that need to charge - at every opportunity because of their short electric only range - to reduce gasoline consumption, competing with medium range EVs that MUST charge to get home, we need to refine the charger usage protocols. One of the chargers can be reserved for EV charging only of medium range EVs that need a charge to get home. The space is not reserved for you, it is reserved for anyone driving an EV whose range will not comfortably fit the round trip commute from work to home.

Yes this does make for some complications in the parking system and signage and possibly requiring a company issued sticker for your vehicle identifying you as one of several people authorized to use a "MUST CHARGE" EV space. But college campuses and some companies do this sort of thing all the time with dozens of different parking permits only valid for certain lots, during certain hours, distinctions betwwen faculty, staff, students, on/off campus living, etc... We're working through many of these very issues in getting the public charging stations setup. There soon will be enough EVs on the road that Teslas that aren't plugged in and charging at an EV spot, or non-plug in Prius will no longer be allowed to use EV charging spaces as their own private parking space and will be towed according to explicit regulations printed on the sign restricting the use of the EV parking space.

If you do work at Google and have an issue getting access to the EV spaces, PM me. I've got a few key contacts at Google that may be able to help with EV charger protocols that will cure your situation without resorting to a space assigned to only you.

 

[DaveEV]

There was no range estimate given that matched my typical driving habits (65mph, flat, no climate control). I was expecting to get about 85 miles based on extrapolation from the given estimates. In reality it's closer to 70-75 miles in eco mode.

So - you get turtle mode after 75 miles of 65 mph on the highway on flat land in decent weather? That doesn't match other people's experience which does seem to be about 85 miles from full to empty - perhaps you've got something wrong with your LEAF.

People drive to turtle mode when they like to carry cab fare for their trip home, in order to make some kind of social statement. I bought it as a car rather than a fashion statement.

You didn't answer the question... You should be able to drive 70-75 mph to get a range of 75-70 mi. Of course - that means draining it and going past turtle.

 

[mwalsh]

You should be able to drive 70-75 mph to get a range of 75-70 mi. Of course - that means draining it and going past turtle.

At 70mph, I'd say yes. At 75mph, no - my own driving has shown consumption in the neighborhood of 5 (maybe 5.5) mpkWh @ that speed. So only good for 60-65 miles. Edit: Although I haven't tried in ECO...maybe that will make a significant difference. I may try that on Monday.

 

[walterbays]

EVs aren't the only cars going 65 in a 65, so I highly doubt anyone is going to pick on EVs by writing their legislators. We have laws for 'tailgating' and 'aggressive driving'. I just turn on my rear lights for idiots that try to tailgate me.

Yes, EVs aren't the only cars going 65 in a 65. And if there get to be enough cars driving the speed limit then it will get easier to do. If drivers understood how many dollars a month it's costing them to get to work a couple of minutes sooner then enough of them would slow down.

Googler, I was in the Bay Area recently and did notice that people "only" drove 70 or so. It would be easier to drive the speed limit there. In Southern California 80 is more typical except on those rare occasions when a highway patrolman is spotted and everyone slows to 60.

Indeed there are laws, but they are almost never enforced. There are also laws against driving in the bike lane or driving in the oncoming traffic lane, similarly disregarded. Heck, I rarely see anyone yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk or stop at a red light unless traffic forces them to stop.

On another thread I think someone mentioned the Leaf's windshield washers might be aimed a bit too high. That's a feature. If someone is tailgating really close, just wash your windshield. It needs it from time to time anyway. And you'd be surprised how quickly the tailgater will drop back.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

did i miss the part where the length of this commute was mentioned?

as for me, i drive slower in the HOV lane than most. if they have issues with it, they can move into lane #4 to go around me. now, i drive 62 mph, speed limit is only 60 here.

seems to me, this all goes back to Cali crooks, oh!!, i meant legislators. they need to wake up, look at what they have done to the economy and lower the speed limit to 60 mph and start writing tickets.

as far as Google running out of charging spots. i doubt that. i feel they will simply install more as the needs increase.

so my comment about expected range degradation was not addressed if you are having concerns now, i have to assume you are making it fine now but have worries you might not in 3-4 years?

 

[Stoaty]

The range is such that I probably can't charge at work, drive home, back to work, and home again. That makes charging at work much less useful since I can't rely upon it. I gave up sleeping in the office years ago.

Thanks for detailed answer. With all of the data, I agree the Leaf is marginal for your needs. However, I disagree that the "current range on the Leaf is very marginal for a majority of consumers". It all depends what the Leaf is being used for. If it is primarily a commute and around town car (certainly the best use for an EV at this stage of development), the statistics on typical commute distance prove this statement wrong.

 

[Stoaty]

Here is the detailed information on commute distance (granted, from 2003):

http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/figure_02.html

89% had a round trip commute of 60 miles or less. That makes the Leaf a good commuter car for the vast majority.

 

[ERG4ALL]

I have been using the HOV lanes for years because I am a motorcyclist as well as a LEAF driver. The main route that I use has a 55 mph speed limit and some others that I use have a 65 mph limit. When traffic is creeping or stop and go on the lane to my right, I may not even do the speed limit and I do drive on the far left track of the HOV lane. I try to look at each vehicle I pass to see if there are two people in it and a potential for moving into the HOV lane without looking. Even then that can't be trusted because the enforcement is lax and a substantial percentage of one-person cars use the HOV lane.

What I am saying is that traveling in the HOV lane at the speed limit (or above) is inviting disaster when some bone-head pulls unexpectedly out in front of you. At least with the LEAF you probably will survive the crash.

 

[Clippy]

It's not that I "can't make it work". I could make the bus or a bicycle work if I had to, but I'd have to give up seeing my family. The question is how much a consumer has to rearrange their life around a car. It's things like this that will inhibit mass adoption of EVs. The current range on the Leaf is very marginal for a majority of consumers.

It seems that you will have no shortage of people telling you how to drive the car you paid for.

It took me exactly one drive on the freeway to decide that my (and the CARB's) car would be kept primarily on surface streets and secondary roads. Google Maps even has a radio box called "Avoid Highways," I plan to use it frequently. I remember thinking to myself at that time to check in to this board to see how many people who bought this thing that had a 40 or 50 mile one way commute would be bailing out early.

Just because it fits a majority of people who frequent this board, does not mean that it is a good fit for the average Joe or Jane Doe. Some people, like our friend here, find that the compromises necessary to do something that you (and perhaps even he) want(s) him to do are too dear. You need to let it (and him) go. You should be delighted that you both still have the economic and political freedoms to do this.

Did "you" really think that the acceptance rate of this vehicle was going to be 100%? Hell, I was ready to sell the thing because of the hassle I was having with the installation of my TOU meter.

The Nissan Leaf can either change things for the "better" or it could very easily become the Oldsmobile Diesel for EVs.

Edit: I decided to take a trip on the freeway this morning after commute hours. I plotted a 44 mile round trip, all freeway. My Leaf was charged to 83%. I did everything but get physically run over. I never exceeded 67 mph. N o Stau, Sig Alerts, nothing but smoove sailin.' No fan, nothing but the radio. I grew three trees. My current state of charge is 25% with an anticipated range of 32 miles. 58% to go 44 miles. If you think this type of performance is going to have people trading in their Priusususus en masse, you smokin' sumptin.

 

[Ready2plugin]

I have been using the HOV lanes for years because I am a motorcyclist as well as a LEAF driver. The main route that I use has a 55 mph speed limit and some others that I use have a 65 mph limit. When traffic is creeping or stop and go on the lane to my right, I may not even do the speed limit and I do drive on the far left track of the HOV lane. I try to look at each vehicle I pass to see if there are two people in it and a potential for moving into the HOV lane without looking. Even then that can't be trusted because the enforcement is lax and a substantial percentage of one-person cars use the HOV lane.

What I am saying is that traveling in the HOV lane at the speed limit (or above) is inviting disaster when some bone-head pulls unexpectedly out in front of you. At least with the LEAF you probably will survive the crash.

This is true...I had someone do this to me last week and I have to say I was very pleased with the brake performance of the LEAF! I was going probably 55 in the HOV (speed limit was 65 but I was worried that someone would try this with the lane to the right going at a crawl and no one right behind me) and low and behold a car decided to jump the solid white line and pull in about 50 yards in front of me. Not only did the LEAF stop in time, I had the ability to apply the "awesome" horn at the same time .

 

[Long4Leaf]

My wife and I fight over who gets to drive the LEAF. We both really like it. The looser has to drive the BMW 335i convertable. :mrgreen:

 

[SanDust]

as for me, i drive slower in the HOV lane than most. if they have issues with it, they can move into lane #4 to go around me. now, i drive 62 mph, speed limit is only 60 here.

If you're prepared to get shot or run off the road by someone you've enraged then this is a reasonable approach. Otherwise maybe not so much. Just happened to see one of those reality police TV shows. Some women was in the left lane going the speed limit and some guy cut her off and starts swearing at her. She calls the police who investigate. Basically they don't do much but the cops just shake their heads at someone being so stupid as to incite road rage, and one of them mentions to his partner that some people -- such as the women in the left lane -- are so inconsiderate of others that they shouldn't be allowed to drive.

Maybe you can get away with backing up traffic in the HOV lane in the Pacific NW but it's not recommended for SoCal. You literally could end up smashed up against the barrier or shot. At best you're feeding the perception that EV drivers are a bunch of sanctimonious A-holes which is how most people look at us. No need to feed the perception. The considerate thing would be to either go with the flow of traffic or, if you feel the speed in the HOV lane is excessive, find another lane gong at a speed you're comfortable with. No reason to be like the RV driver who backs up 40 cars going up a hill because they don't want to pull over.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Or carry a bigger gun.