Battery endurance for every day commuting

[Mesuge]

Hm, this thread was mainly focused on the questions, surrounding when/why is Nissan still delaying disclousure of key features (warranty, life cycle, temp issue recommendations) of their proprietary batt. pack technology in the light of more info-forthcomming competitors. Pls. don't derail it into techno thread only, there are other active posts for that in this very forum.
I'll only add here that it's indeed great there are varied approaches to it (Tesla, GM-Voltec, Nissan-Renault), they pursue different goals, power envelopes and market segments.

 

[AndyH]

Hm, this thread was mainly focused on the questions, surrounding when/why is Nissan still delaying disclousure of key features (warranty, life cycle, temp issue recommendations) of their proprietary batt. pack technology in the light of more info-forthcomming competitors. Pls. don't derail it into techno thread only, there are other active posts for that in this very forum.
I'll only add here that it's indeed great there are varied approaches to it (Tesla, GM-Voltec, Nissan-Renault), they pursue different goals, power envelopes and market segments.

Where in the world are you from, Mesuge? Can you buy a Leaf or should you be beating on someone on a 'my Renault' forum?

Jess has clearly stated that she's told us what she can and will tell more when she knows it.
Nissan has published plenty of tech data, as has the battery manufacturer (AESC).
There are other web sites that give plenty of detail on what a LiMn cells is, how it acts, how it's charged, lifespan, and other details. That's engineering stuff - not 'joe consumer' stuff - and it's not likely we'll be able to get that level of information from ANY Nissan rep hired to work with the public - even after the car's been on the road for years.

I've been involved with engine oil specifications and testing. A dealer rep or customer service person WILL tell a customer which product to use (or which standard to look for), and when they recommend changing the oil - but will not and/or can not tell them what's in the oil, how it's made, or give away any other info that would help a competitor use the results of their time, technology, and/or experience for free.

The next info release is scheduled for June - you're likely to have to wait for news just like the rest of us.

Andy

 

[Gavin]

I would like to know who the

more info-forthcoming competitors

are.

I don't know the

disclosure of key features (warranty, life cycle, temp issue recommendations)

of the iMiEV, the FocusEV (heck I don't know the price of the Focus EV), the Fiat 500EV....or any EV coming to market any time soon.

We won't see the LEAF til Dec 2010, and only in a few markets...and only about 5 to 10k cars at most at first.

Nissan has stated they will have more info out by end of June. We will have plenty of time to cancel if we don't like what we hear about these "key features." And they are important. Of course if we don't like the LEAF's features, well we are kinda out of luck for a while. Nobody else has an EV ready to go that is highway capable and multi-passenger.

But that should change over the next couple of years...YEAH. Choices are good. Nissan putting the pedal to the metal / stepping on the Electrons so to speak, is a good thing...heck a fantastic thing that has made all the other manufactures take their heads out and also speed things up.

Thanks Nissan...even if I prefer the Fiat 500EV, I appreciate all you are doing and will gladly support you by "very likely*" buying a LEAF this year or early next.

Gavin

*the only way I don't get a LEAF is if suddenly either Fiat gets the 500 here early next year (doubtful) or Ford gets some info out STAT on the FocusEV and I like the specs and other info better, and Ford also moves up the release date to similar to the LEAF (also doubtful as I don't think Ford has the ramp up ability at this time to match the LEAF...until Ford grabs back the FocusEV from being made out of house and gets it back in house, well it can't get 50k FocusEv done in that first year.)

 

[garygid]

Trying to identify the "limiting" sheet and brick can be relatively easy if the pack is sufficiently instrumented, but finding the "weak" cell inside the brick usually requires separating the parallel cells and running more tests. Generally, a lot of work, even after one is able to detect that something is "wrong" with the pack.

 

[evnow]

Hm, this thread was mainly focused on the questions, surrounding when/why is Nissan still delaying disclousure of key features (warranty, life cycle, temp issue recommendations) of their proprietary batt. pack technology in the light of more info-forthcomming competitors.

GM Volt holds a press conference every other day - and yet we know almost nothing about their battery pack. So who are these mythical competitors with lots of info. May be you are talking about cell manufacturers like A123 - not auto companies ?

BTW, the answet to your question is right in the question - you won't get any of that info because it is a proprietary batt. pack.

 

[Gavin]

From the thread starter it seemed the thread was asking when we would know more information...a nice question. a simple question. a GOOD question.


I saw nothing from the thread starter as to

why is Nissan still delaying disclosure

.

So we can accurately state for the thread starter, "Nissan tells us they will have more info by the end of June, possibly earlier."

Now we can hope for early. Heck we can ask Jessica to see what info she can give now. But I'm not sure how it jumped suddenly to Nissan purposely "delaying disclosure." But perhaps we have a language barrier. Perhaps that just means "Nissan--like Ford and Mits and Fiat and every EV maker coming out soon, hasn't let everyone know just yet, but will soon like they have promised." And not some ominous plot like it sounds in my head when I read that.



Gavin

 

[bedrock8x]

Is it fair to let the public know the battery warranty spec before they make the pre-order?

 

[evnow]

Is it fair to let the public know the battery warranty spec before they make the pre-order?

Why ? Everyone knows it is yet to be disclosed ...

 

[garygid]

I would want a lot more details (lease, etc.) before I decide to lease or buy (or not).

And, the $99 is relatively "small", and fully refundable.

 

[Bicster]

From Chelsea Sexton's chat with GM-Volt.com yesterday:

2:08 [Comment From Earl ] Chelsea, do you have any idea what kind of battery life is expected on the Volt?

2:09 chelsea: I haven't seen announced estimates from GM, but the state of CA requires a 10-yr /150k warranty so I'm expecting that's the target.

 

[AndyH]

From Chelsea Sexton's chat with GM-Volt.com yesterday:

2:08 [Comment From Earl ] Chelsea, do you have any idea what kind of battery life is expected on the Volt?

2:09 chelsea: I haven't seen announced estimates from GM, but the state of CA requires a 10-yr /150k warranty so I'm expecting that's the target.

In spite of GMs propaganda machine, the Volt is a HYBRID car, not an EV. Hybrid batteries are a critical part of emissions performance so are part of the long-term warranty. In other words - GM isn't building a long-life battery because they're super designers, they're doing it because they have to.

 

[evnow]

In spite of GMs propaganda machine, the Volt is a HYBRID car, not an EV. Hybrid batteries are a critical part of emissions performance so are part of the long-term warranty. In other words - GM isn't building a long-life battery because they're super designers, they're doing it because they have to.

Not that it is a long-life battery - what they do is use only 50% of the battery. They have a 16kwh battery and use only 8 kwh of it. Compare that to 80-90% that is used by Leaf or Tesla.

So, with that battery, if someone is allowed to tweak it, we should be able to drive 60 miles on electric easily.

 

[daniel]

Is it fair to let the public know the battery warranty spec before they make the pre-order?

Nobody is forced to place a pre-order. Nissan says, "If you want to give us $99 now, we'll take it. And we'll give it back to you any time you change your mind." This helps them gauge demand. There is nothing fair or unfair about it. Personally, I'd buy the car now, sight unseen, because I trust Nissan to build a good car with good battery performance. But more cautious people would be well advised to wait and place their orders after Consumer Reports has tested the car, which presumably will happen as soon as one of their buyers can get one. Or even after the cars have been on the road for a year or two and there's more real-world experience and data on the battery.

Personally, I'm less interested in the details of the battery warranty than in whether I can actually get one before the WA state sales tax exemption expires at the end of this year!

 

[garygid]

If the Volt battery has only 8 edies "usable" and they expect to get 36 miles in EV mode, that is 4.5 mpe, a rather "good" e-economy, it might seem.

 

[garygid]

I would love to get the CA $5000, but it appears that it will only be available to the 800 early-test vehicles. (moan)

 

[AndyH]

In spite of GMs propaganda machine, the Volt is a HYBRID car, not an EV. Hybrid batteries are a critical part of emissions performance so are part of the long-term warranty. In other words - GM isn't building a long-life battery because they're super designers, they're doing it because they have to.

Not that it is a long-life battery - what they do is use only 50% of the battery. They have a 16kwh battery and use only 8 kwh of it. Compare that to 80-90% that is used by Leaf or Tesla.

So, with that battery, if someone is allowed to tweak it, we should be able to drive 60 miles on electric easily.

Sure - but then you're still dragging around an ICE and fuel tank that's a sufficient size to run a car that size without the EV equipment. And expanding the usable SOC range shortens pack life.

For example - the PSI cells with which I work are capable of 2000 cycles at a 1C charge/discharge rate before the cell drops to 80% capacity. That's a cycle per day for almost 5 1/2 years. Looked at another way - if the typical American drives 12,000 miles per year, and we have a 100 mile range, we put 120 cycles per year on the pack. In typical use that's more than 16 years of life for 2000 cycles. (Ignoring cell capacity loss due to time. Might only take 14 years to reach 80% capacity.

There's already a very small pack rebuilding effort in the US - focused on the legacy RAV4, S10, Ranger, Electricar, and Solectria vehicles. There's also the DIY community and they are moving now from lead-acid to lithium. By the time the first Leafs hit their 5th birthday, I expect there to be at least one non-dealer option for pack repair/rebuilding.

Andy

 

[Bicster]

In spite of GMs propaganda machine, the Volt is a HYBRID car, not an EV. Hybrid batteries are a critical part of emissions performance so are part of the long-term warranty. In other words - GM isn't building a long-life battery because they're super designers, they're doing it because they have to.

You're right. I presumed the warranty requirement applied to EV batteries too. Chelsea Sexton confirmed that there is no EV battery warranty requirement.

 

[LEAFfan]

In spite of GMs propaganda machine, the Volt is a HYBRID car, not an EV. Hybrid batteries are a critical part of emissions performance so are part of the long-term warranty. In other words - GM isn't building a long-life battery because they're super designers, they're doing it because they have to.

Not that it is a long-life battery - what they do is use only 50% of the battery. They have a 16kwh battery and use only 8 kwh of it. Compare that to 80-90% that is used by Leaf or Tesla.

So, with that battery, if someone is allowed to tweak it, we should be able to drive 60 miles on electric easily.

For the LEAF, someone posted that at a steady 65mph, you should be able to get around 80 miles. So for the Volt's battery, which no one has said, should only get 32 miles at that speed.

 

[garygid]

I suspect less than 32 mi (at 65) for the Volt. But, who really knows.

My 2010 Prius has about 0.5 kWh available, said to about a mile in EV mode (slow, on the flat). However, there is no 1-mile of "slow" available here (unless I use an empty parking lot on the weekend).

 

[planet4ever]

I would love to get the CA $5000, but it appears that it will only be available to the 800 early-test vehicles. (moan)

It's true that the project is only funded for $4.1M at present, for the pool of vehicles that includes the Leaf, but its money comes out of a larger air quality project which is approved through 2015. However, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there might be only about $4M per year for the next five years.

That could work out to considerably less than 800 Leaf's per year, since the same pool is used to give rebates for everything from a Tesla to a GEM, including plug-in cars like the Volt or Prius+ (though the GEM can only get up to $1350 and the Volt $3000).

Reference: http://energycenter.org/index.php/incentive-programs/clean-vehicle-rebate-project