Battery Replacement Program Details

[Valdemar]

I am sure Nissan will do the right thing. They have done so with the heat-degradation debacle in Arizona...I am sure they addressed the owners issues there because they decided this was the right thing to do, not because people were complaining, right?

How? You mean the lame 8-bar retroactive warranty? Better than nothing I guess.

 

[klapauzius]

I am sure Nissan will do the right thing. They have done so with the heat-degradation debacle in Arizona...I am sure they addressed the owners issues there because they decided this was the right thing to do, not because people were complaining, right?

How? You mean the lame 8-bar retroactive warranty? Better than nothing I guess.

I think you might want to read this thread
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think Nissan actually bought back a number of cars.

 

[Valdemar]

^^^ Fair enough. I'm on a steady path to 65% remaining capacity after 5 years and basically no option to sell the car for reasonable amount at that time. Will they buy back mine?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

now, cheap leases do not address the people who bought 11's so what to do? cant sell technology you don't have.

Could you please explain that sentence? What exactly do you mean by "cant sell technology you dont have"???

you live in the Pacific NW, so you are not likely to want to buy a battery anytime soon but the statement is to reference the line a few below it...(or above it)

in that who wants to pay big bucks for a battery that failed them? you only buy what you want to keep long term and a battery that does not hold up in heat that nearly EVERYONE sees including us is a major problem.

its one thing for Phoenix to die in the heat because EVERYTHING dies in the heat there but various places in So. Cal where temps run in the mid 80's?? THAT is a problem.

But people want battery replacements; so ya Nissan is throwing us a bone. a workaround. a temporary fix. that is all it is and they made it pretty easy to like.

you can sign up for it at ANYTIME. So drive your LEAF 10 years and put 120,000 miles on it. by then you will be at 9 bars, then pay your $100 a month (which will probably no longer be available) and get a brand new battery. Its nearly a lifetime guarantee. IF (and its a real big "if") you can live with a battery that could linger at 9 bars. but keep in mind; you will be getting technology that is 10 years in advance of what "you could have purchased today"

so am i happy with the lease?? i am not happy with the lack of details since we didnt get any other than the "bar thing" I dont consider "about $100" to be real info, only a guideline as to what to expect and it holds no more water for me than the word "lease". its a term i am familiar with. I dont like the "cant replace your leased battery until it gets down to 8 bars" clause. that wont work for me. simply not enough range.

the other thing they alluded to but did not explain or elaborate is "new technology" and whether early leasers would be able to move to that new technology before getting to the replacement level.

as far as the "$100 a month for life?" if you dont like it, get rid of your LEAF and go back to paying "$100 a month for life" in gasoline after you find an oil company willing to lock in that price for you.

but for all the complaining, what if they said "ok the replacement battery is $12,000 and a 70% capacity battery is worth $3,000 on trade in". that is $9,000

or it could be $8,000 or even $5,000. if you dont have the cash, you have to get a loan. what you putting up for collateral? a battery that is known to degrade? Some of you have the money. Some do not. its not as cut and dried as it might seem to most.

to me; Nissan did not give a flat out purchase price because its like the $17,000 Ford Focus Battery pack (the charger is $4800 btw) its like who is going to buy one?

the other scenario; the one we hate is the "lease for life" but is it really? you terminate the lease, they come and get the battery but when would you terminate the lease? when you sell the car or when you buy a battery. a battery that will now cycle in hot climates for a "real" 10 years and have 80% degradation and why? because it has the advantage of more technology behind it.

you think you hate Nissan now? think of how you feel if you did buy a battery and it started to lose capacity quickly just like the first one did?

So like I said; I think Nissan picked the lesser of two evils. they are playing a waiting game and they want to do what they can to make sure we dont get burned. is that a "pie in the sky" attitude? maybe but one thing that is hard to ignore is how many people here and elsewhere are on their 2nd and 3rd LEAF.

its the "drive electric" fever and talk about the other options out there if you want but for my needs, the LEAF is still the best option out there.

and finally, this post was made under duress. my Son is harassing me to go to the fireworks (about 90 minutes early) which is being held at the park about a half mile from our house so its a 10 minute walk...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

you can sign up for it at ANYTIME. So drive your LEAF 10 years and put 120,000 miles on it. by then you will be at 9 bars, then pay your $100 a month (which will probably no longer be available) and get a brand new battery. Its nearly a lifetime guarantee. IF (and its a real big "if") you can live with a battery that could linger at 9 bars. but keep in mind; you will be getting technology that is 10 years in advance of what "you could have purchased today"

Or Be Like TaylorSFGuy and drive it 80,000 miles, lose ONE bar and then pay $100 a month and drive it 80,000 more miles and trade it in for a battery that has a 4 year advantage in technology. (this is assuming you dont do the whole 80,000 in two years like he did. even so, 20,000 miles a year is still quite a bit!)

 

[Valdemar]

I have another theory why they didn't announce a purchase price. $100/mo is a number that is easy to put next to gas spendings to make it look competitive, and it may be easier to adjust up when gas prices increase. Say in 4-5 years when the number of battery replacements is likely going to increase the price of gas doubles, they can then increase the lease price to a higher number citing rising manufacturing costs but still leaving the lease an attractive option for many people. Yes they could do the same with the full battery price but psychologically for people it is easier to deal with a $50/mo lease hike than a $5,000 full battery price increase say if the announced purchase price was $10000 today. In other words they are afraid to prematurely set the bar low as it may negatively affect future profits.

 

[klapauzius]

as far as the "$100 a month for life?" if you dont like it, get rid of your LEAF and go back to paying "$100 a month for life" in gasoline after you find an oil company willing to lock in that price for you.

but for all the complaining, what if they said "ok the replacement battery is $12,000 and a 70% capacity battery is worth $3,000 on trade in". that is $9,000

or it could be $8,000 or even $5,000. if you dont have the cash, you have to get a loan. what you putting up for collateral? a battery that is known to degrade? Some of you have the money. Some do not. its not as cut and dried as it might seem to most.

to me; Nissan did not give a flat out purchase price because its like the $17,000 Ford Focus Battery pack (the charger is $4800 btw) its like who is going to buy one?

the other scenario; the one we hate is the "lease for life" but is it really? you terminate the lease, they come and get the battery but when would you terminate the lease? when you sell the car or when you buy a battery. a battery that will now cycle in hot climates for a "real" 10 years and have 80% degradation and why? because it has the advantage of more technology behind it.

you think you hate Nissan now? think of how you feel if you did buy a battery and it started to lose capacity quickly just like the first one did?

So like I said; I think Nissan picked the lesser of two evils. they are playing a waiting game and they want to do what they can to make sure we dont get burned. is that a "pie in the sky" attitude? maybe but one thing that is hard to ignore is how many people here and elsewhere are on their 2nd and 3rd LEAF.

its the "drive electric" fever and talk about the other options out there if you want but for my needs, the LEAF is still the best option out there.

and finally, this post was made under duress. my Son is harassing me to go to the fireworks (about 90 minutes early) which is being held at the park about a half mile from our house so its a 10 minute walk...

Dave, I agree the "rent-a-battery" deal is probably good for all those who live in hot climates. I have said that many times in this forum. No need to discuss this part. It is probably even good for those who leased.

Now, as I also explained multiple times, if you expect the battery to last for about 8 years and plan on using the car for a long time, this deal is probably as good or bad as a $15000 battery right now.

That is all fine and well, IF there was a reasonable alternative offered by Nissan. But there isn't.

The price for the Focus Battery today does not matter. What matters is that there is one. Nobody will want to buy a pack today to replace a degraded pack. But you understand that the availability of a price and pack today indicates that I can likely buy one in 5-8 years at a greatly reduced price. Obviously Ford is committed to selling a battery at some point to their customers.

Yes, I noticed that many people are in their 2nd or 3rd Leaf. That is also fine, but if you consider the economy of the whole leasing business, this is rather costly and leasing has strings attached, that some people dont like.

You are worried about the price of the battery but suggest getting a new car every 2 -3 years?
And who will buy the returned leases with this "rent-a-battery" deal?? Or do we just junk them?

 

[mwalsh]

Or Be Like TaylorSFGuy and drive it 80,000 miles, lose ONE bar and then pay $100 a month and drive it 80,000 more miles and trade it in for a battery that has a 4 year advantage in technology. (this is assuming you dont do the whole 80,000 in two years like he did. even so, 20,000 miles a year is still quite a bit!)

That's a bit of an oversimplification, don't you think? Many people in AZ aren't going to get 80,000 useable miles out of their first (or subsequent) packs. And taking heat out of the equation, leaving "time" as the next predominant factor, it may not be that those in more moderate climes, but driving way fewer miles per year, get 80,000 usable miles from their packs either!

 

[mwalsh]

to me; Nissan did not give a flat out purchase price because its like the $17,000 Ford Focus Battery pack (the charger is $4800 btw) its like who is going to buy one?

Dave, it's been widely reported that the Focus EV pack is list priced in Ford's own parts catalog for $10,508.38. So where you're getting $17,000 from I do not know.

And let's not forget that Ford is subbing it's pack out. Nissan should be able to build their own pack more affordably. ESPECIALLY if they were to forego a profit initially, in order satisfy any early adopters who might want to buy one.

 

[klapauzius]

to me; Nissan did not give a flat out purchase price because its like the $17,000 Ford Focus Battery pack (the charger is $4800 btw) its like who is going to buy one?

Dave, it's been widely reported that the Focus EV pack is list priced in Ford's own parts catalog for $10,508.38. So where you're getting $17,000 from I do not know.

And let's not forget that Ford is subbing it's pack out. Nissan should be able to build their own pack more affordably. ESPECIALLY if they were to forego a profit initially, in order satisfy any early adopters who might want to buy one.

But of course, if you can throw around numbers like $17000, you can feel much better about selling the $100/month rental plan. :twisted:

Also, $500 / kWH has been assumed a realistic price in 2011 for an automotive battery, so it would be somewhat dishonest to claim more than that for a battery today.

 

[TomT]

I guess I missed the sarcasm emoticon! :lol:

I am sure Nissan will do the right thing. They have done so with the heat-degradation debacle in Arizona...I am sure they addressed the owners issues there because they decided this was the right thing to do, not because people were complaining, right?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Dave, it's been widely reported that the Focus EV pack is list priced in Ford's own parts catalog for $10,508.38. So where you're getting $17,000 from I do not know.

i got it from the narrowly reported area of the internet called "ford.com"

Michael; check my blog. the Focus EV pack is $17,355 and that is battery pack ONLY. charger is like $4800 and on and on. (this only lends to my statement that people will ignore "options" that are not really options

http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/CatalogResults.aspx?y=2013&m=Ford&mo=Focus#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

check subheading under electrical, choose "electric" for model

oops; charger is $4662.23. it has been discounted!! nothing to fear, prices are dropping! (it could be a bad memory too )

"oversimplification?" with the details we have to work with and you expect details?

ok. sure but that requires a LOT of "filling in the blanks"

For AZ people; its pretty much a foregone conclusion they will be one of the few that will use the standard warranty to get one replacement battery. From what I see, the real replacement time that still lends usability will vary from about 20,000 to maybe as much as 40,000 miles. Problem is the Battery Warranty Program (BWP) CANNOT be initiated at any time which is one the the major advantages of the BRP (battery Replacement Program)

So if AZ'ers get a BWP at say 30,000 miles and miss the option to get the 2nd one before their 60,000 mile clock runs out, they can immediately get a BRP for a modest $100 a month. This BRP will have as little as 3 years and could be as much as 5 years of additional tech behind it.

So what if (and this is NOT really that big an if) Nissan comes out with a new chemistry that is expected to retain 90% capacity after 60,000 miles in Phoenix in 3 years? (or 4 years or maybe 2!) That would mean those people getting the BRP to replace their BWP would now be able to get off the "Battery Merry go round"

Add to that; Nissan now has a product they can stand behind. A Product that someone is willing to take a 4 year loan out to buy because they know in 4 years, they will still have most of their capacity? So then its a lease, buy, or "rent to buy" program!

So now you have people who took the lease program and other than paying $100 a month for a few years OR MORE LIKELY LESS, they now have something worth buying.

OR we go to the flipside. Due to overwhelming demand; Nissan starts selling packs in 6 months. Unfortunately, its not what they want to sell, but the customer wants it and they want it because they dont know what Nissan knows and Nissan simply cannot convince them that they simply need to wait and buy the "right" product.

In order to address what will be a firestorm of controversy; Nissan gives a 50% discount to all early adopters (because they know anyone buying the battery will be very unhappy in a few years) and its only $3,000 out of pocket for a battery that gets you at least 278 GIDs or more...281 on good days.

So which bandaid will do the best job of stopping the bleeding? I see the purchase option as being more expensive and NOT fixing anything. am i "that" wrong here?

all in all, i think the lease program really does best cover the needs of most of the people here. what we fail to understand is that we think we have to start paying the $100 right away (which is wrong) we will get the same battery we have now (which "could" be wrong unless you are first in line next Jan)

the lease program "could" allow you to get a battery that may cycle twice the time your current battery does. that is a possibility. People say their LEAF will have no resale value but what if you sell your LEAF with the BRP and it still has 90% of its capacity left? will the price be that bad??

wont be good because by then we are likely to have 150 BEVs running around all over the place for $20,000.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

to me; Nissan did not give a flat out purchase price because its like the $17,000 Ford Focus Battery pack (the charger is $4800 btw) its like who is going to buy one?

Dave, it's been widely reported that the Focus EV pack is list priced in Ford's own parts catalog for $10,508.38. So where you're getting $17,000 from I do not know.

And let's not forget that Ford is subbing it's pack out. Nissan should be able to build their own pack more affordably. ESPECIALLY if they were to forego a profit initially, in order satisfy any early adopters who might want to buy one.

But of course, if you can throw around numbers like $17000, you can feel much better about selling the $100/month rental plan. :twisted:

Also, $500 / kWH has been assumed a realistic price in 2011 for an automotive battery, so it would be somewhat dishonest to claim more than that for a battery today.

one thing i do like about Ford is that you can buy only parts of the battery. They sell the "upper" for $8995.27 same for lower.

FYI; the $17,000 cost is for the 2012 battery pack. the cost of the 2013 battery pack is very much a confused issue which my Sis (A Ford Service Writer for the past 14 years) could not clear up.

on the webpage; the entire pack for a 2013 says "call dealer" which is essentially talking to Sis who was UNABLE to get a price which is not uncommon for newer products. IOW, the pack is ONLY available for WARRANTY PURPOSES ONLY (where have we heard THAT one before)

BUT; the webpage does list the half packs at $4438.67 and $4175.48 but once again, they do not appear to be available despite what the webpage states

 

[thankyouOB]

"....So what if (and this is NOT really that big an if) Nissan comes out ..."
ibid ^^2

and if frogs had wings, they wouldnt bump their ass when they jump.

how about a price for the battery, even with some fudge words...such as, buyers and leasers of the battery in 2014 should be aware that price of batteries will decline, and quality and chemistry is expected to improve over time.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

"....So what if (and this is NOT really that big an if) Nissan comes out ..."
ibid ^^2

and if frogs had wings, they wouldnt bump their ass when they jump.

how about a price for the battery, even with some fudge words...such as, buyers and leasers of the battery in 2014 should be aware that price of batteries will decline, and quality and chemistry is expected to improve over time.

well, i "chose" to believe that the launch of the BRP is being delayed until 2014Q1 due to an impending battery chemistry upgrade!!

but then again, I have been known to be wrong and that would go against my "not having the "right" product to sell" theory...

 

[thankyouOB]

[
well, i "chose" to believe that the launch of the BRP is being delayed until 2014Q1 due to an impending battery chemistry upgrade!!

but then again, I have been known to be wrong and that would go against my "not having the "right" product to sell" theory...

that is all good, and i am in league with that hope.
but it is nissan's job to communicate with its customers and support those who bought the car.
it is also imperative to nissan success.
it is failing in communication and product support under the battery category.
the only thing that saves them is that the EV product is largely good.

 

[surfingslovak]

well, i "chose" to believe that the launch of the BRP is being delayed until 2014Q1 due to an impending battery chemistry upgrade!!

but then again, I have been known to be wrong and that would go against my "not having the "right" product to sell" theory...

Dave, I think your zeal and enthusiasm are admired and appreciated. However, it would be good to separate fact from fiction. I'm sure that you have learned a few important things about this program from Nissan in your function as a member of the Advisory Board. Would it be possible to separate those from your own theories and communicate them succinctly, if they are not subject to an NDA? Likewise, would it be possible to learn what you personally or the Advisory Board as a group will take back as feedback to Nissan? That would be much appreciated. Please keep up the good work.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

well, i "chose" to believe that the launch of the BRP is being delayed until 2014Q1 due to an impending battery chemistry upgrade!!

but then again, I have been known to be wrong and that would go against my "not having the "right" product to sell" theory...

Dave, I think your zeal and enthusiasm are admired and appreciated. However, it would be good to separate fact from fiction. I'm sure that you have learned a few important things about this program from Nissan in your function as a member of the Advisory Board. Would it be possible to separate those from your own theories and communicate them succinctly, if they are not subject to an NDA? Likewise, would it be possible to learn what you personally or the Advisory Board as a group will take back as feedback to Nissan? That would be much appreciated. Please keep up the good work.

I am subject to an NDA and most of it is left as plainly obvious. after the Phoenix situation its a no brainer to say that they are working on a more heat tolerant chemistry.

as to when it will happen? Zero clue on that. If Nissan really knew, they probably would have said so but its like any innovation; its all really an educated guess, a guess we are not privy to so it could be 6 months or 3 years. I am GUESSING they are weighing the options between the big 3 of battery concerns; heat tolerance, cycle life, and power output to find a more acceptable solution.

I think that with the track record of sliding timelines, Nissan would be hesitant to announce they will have anything ready by such and such a date until they are to the point of being sure. keep in mind; the chemistry after its "discovered" still needs to be tested. not sure if I am fully onboard with these cycle tests done in a few months that are supposed to represent 10 years of "normal" use. As we have seen, the real results are highly dependent on actual conditions the batteries will live in.

another thing about degradation. time is seemingly a significant factor that will take years to verify. We have people in WA where Steve has 80,000 miles and lost a bar and we have another with 45,000 (has never QC'd I think and I will double check that) miles who also lost a bar just the other day. I am at 36,000 miles and got a GID count of 255 this morning so cycling is also playing a role. Very interested in seeing what the status of a 5 year old LEAF averaging 10,000 miles a year will be

finally, I try to make it obvious when I am stating my own thoughts and will try to kick that up a notch

 

[surfingslovak]

finally, I try to make it obvious when I am stating my own thoughts and will try to kick that up a notch

Thanks, Dave, I think that would be much appreciated. At least I know that I would value such approach. To sum up your post above: you are subject to an NDA. Nissan has not confirmed that they were working on a new chemistry, and you could not tell if they were. The timeline of the market introduction of any new technology has not been communicated, and aside from your own interpretation, you don't know why Nissan has chosen to offer a battery rental program only at this time. Is this fair to say or did I miss anything?

 

[klapauzius]

So which bandaid will do the best job of stopping the bleeding? I see the purchase option as being more expensive and NOT fixing anything. am i "that" wrong here?

I think having more options would do the best job!
But probably it will take a study group of experts to find that out....