Battery Replacement Program Details

[aatheus]

At this rate of $100 plus range issue, I'm going back to GAS. Sell us the battery pack! This way current and future owner trust Nissan will be there for their cars. Anything least I'm disappointed in Nissan!

I'm very disappointed in you, Oscar Apparently Saudi oil is dear to you.

Why do you want to know the price of the replacement battery pack now ? Are you planning to buy one now ?

ps : If you stop hyperventilating, may be people will take you more seriously.

Just a guess, but maybe he (and others) want to know the price now in order to have something to compare to in a few years. Or their battery hasn't dropped enough to be covered under the 5yr warranty, but its capacity is still too low for their commute. Or they just want to have one. Does the reason why matter?

 

[klapauzius]

In my situation (i.e. here in WA), I do not expect to buy a new battery, even 3 years from now. I think the current one will last a while and if I can buy a new one after 8 years (and trade in my old one) say at something around $5k or less net and drive another 8 years with it, I would call this a success.

If you want to buy a battery after 8 years, why do you care whether they announce a price now or not ? Check back after 7 years. I'm sure you will have plenty of options.

Because I would like to have a little bit of planning security right now. Call me old fashioned, but I think for $35k cash I should be able to expect some long term perspective. What I am worried right now is that if Nissan wont even bother to sell batteries, maybe seven years from now the car will simply be junk, because I cant get any reasonable replacement for the batteries.

Yes, I have plenty of time to wait still, but this unwillingness to commit on the manufacturers side is a bit unsettling.

Now about these speculations on the battery price:

At $100 a month in a climate like Arizona we know that a battery can easily degrade to 70% in 3 years.
So then the price for an upgrade from a 70% to a 100% would be $3600.

Consequently , if I trade in my 70% percent battery for a 100% battery, it should cost $3600 right now.

Based on what we have seen in degradation, the price for an upgrade cannot be much more than that, if this battery rental program for $100/month is real. Anything significantly higher (like $12k or $15k) would not make any sense, based on the simple fact that you can burn through a battery in hot climates in a very short time.

Or is this all a misunderstanding and Nissan is still going to tell us what the price for a replacement pack is?
Its Summer now, so we should get a price then.

 

[evnow]

Does the reason why matter?

Yes - corporations are not there to satisfy every whim & fancy. They respond to real problems & issues. If people can't come up with real life scenarios, all their protests will go in vain.

 

[cdub]

Just sell the car and get a new car.

I don't want to sell the car and get a new car. I want a replacement price for the battery. I OWN my Leaf free and clear. In 7 years... I want to be able to update the battery pack.

Without signing up for a lease. I don't lease.

 

[evnow]

In 7 years... I want to be able to update the battery pack.

You want a price NOW, so that you can buy it in 7 years ? Do you really expect that to be a convincing argument ?

 

[klapauzius]

In 7 years... I want to be able to update the battery pack.

You want a price NOW, so that you can buy it in 7 years ? Do you really expect that to be a convincing argument ?

Well, we know that Nissan knows what the price is. They build these things by the thousands and they sell them.
Also they said they are going to give us a price ("in Spring") and now they don't.
It always feels bad when people are not honest with you or try to play games.


I think the main concern here is, if they do not give a price now, they do so because they do not have any intention to ever sell batteries. If they cant give one now, why should they be able to do that tomorrow? They could have put a price tag on the battery in 2010.

 

[edatoakrun]

...Why do you want to know the price of the replacement battery pack now ? Are you planning to buy one now ?...

You want a price NOW, so that you can buy it in 7 years ? Do you really expect that to be a convincing argument ?...

Well, I could say why I want to know the current price on a part I expect to eventually need for my car is really none of your business, so there is no need for any "argument".

I think the question that is every present or future LEAF owner's legitimate concern, is why is the Nissan battery pack probably the only part of any Nissan vehicle, or any other vehicle currently for sale in the USA, for which the dealer will refuse to sell a part, that they manufacture and distribute?

Look, as a group I'd say we've been patient with Nissan.

We understand that pricing the battery pack is a complex business decision, and Nissan's desire to delay the price announcement for as long as possible.

But the LEAF has been on sale for going on three years now, and least one few LEAF owner whose car is already out of warranty may want to purchase a battery shortly.

And all of us, IMO, now have the right to know what Nissan intends to charge for the replacement pack, or if, as has been stated by several posters' on this thread who have being privately briefed, that Nissan's present plan is to refuse to sell us replacement packs at all.

In over two years of Leasing/owning and driving my LEAF I have met and talked to literally hundreds of interested people.

One of the most-asked questions, of course, is "What does it cost to replace the battery"?

I have been replying, "I'm very curious about the price myself, since I like my LEAF, and will probably want to buy or trade-in my pack in another five or six years. Nissan promised to announce the price (next/this/last) Spring."

From now on, I will have to reply to that same question:

"Nissan broke its promise to announce the battery pack price, and has refused to state when a price will be announced, or even if it will ever permit you to buy replacement battery pack at your local Nissan dealer at all."

I guess I could add to that answer, by trying to explain the "program" Nissan proposed on the original post of this thread, but all I could really say about it is that Nissan's explanation is unintelligible gibberish, absent the information required to make an informed assessment of the true cost of its proposed battery rental? service contract? lease agreement? "program".

Hell of a way to sell cars, if you ask me...

 

[LEAFfan]

At this rate of $100 plus range issue, I'm going back to GAS. Sell us the battery pack! This way current and future owner trust Nissan will be there for their cars. Anything least I'm disappointed in Nissan!

I'm very disappointed in you, Oscar Apparently Saudi oil is dear to you.

Why do you want to know the price of the replacement battery pack now ? Are you planning to buy one now ?

ps : If you stop hyperventilating, may be people will take you more seriously.

+1!

 

[Stoaty]

I think the question that is every present or future LEAF owner's legitimate concern, is why is the Nissan battery pack probably the only part of any Nissan vehicle, or any other vehicle currently for sale in the USA, for which the dealer will refuse to sell a part, that they manufacture and distribute?

Hmm... what is the current price for a model S 60 kwh pack? the 85 kwh pack? How much is the pack for the Chevy Spark? For the Ford Focus Electric? Perhaps I haven't been paying attention, but I don't recall seeing pricing for those battery packs. I'm not talking about estimates, but an exact price for a battery pack you can buy today.

 

[cwerdna]

For the Model S, AFAIK, you can't buy today but per http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/2013-model-s-price-increase" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We have received many requests for a Battery Replacement Option. We are happy to now offer this option for all three battery variants. This option will provide you a new battery anytime after the end of the eighth year at a fixed price. Prices are as follows: $8,000 for the 40 kWh battery, $10,000 for the 60 kWh battery, and $12,000 for the 85 kWh battery. You will be able to purchase this additional option through your MyTesla page in the near future.

I haven't followed the above closely as it seems risky from at least 3 aspects: Tesla goes under, you no longer want/have the car at the 8th year, the car is totaled or stolen.

 

[Mx5racer]

I am sure that the price now...is more Han anyone would spend and with rebates it would be cheaper to buy a new car. The price in the future when people actually will be buying hem will be significantly less. However, everyone that is against electric cars will start using the replacement price as a reason why the electric cars have failed.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Speaking of media/comments pouring in, WSJ seems to concur:
http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2013/06/21/dont-get-stuck-in-an-old-electric-car/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Consumers who lease electric cars don’t have to worry too much about the resale value. But auto makers and finance companies that are offering discounted lease deals do. The low residual values of the leased vehicles could result in losses when the vehicles come back and are resold at auction, depending on the size of the gap between the value estimated when the lease contract price was calculated and the actual value at auction.

The thing is I don't think they care one bit. They are making their money on subsidies and credits that enable them to sell the gas burners.

 

[nosuchthing]

NISSAN - if this is how you want to do it, then...sell me 2013 Leaf for $10,000 with a leased battery!

 

[evnow]

Well, we know that Nissan knows what the price is. They build these things by the thousands and they sell them.
Also they said they are going to give us a price ("in Spring") and now they don't.
It always feels bad when people are not honest with you or try to play games.

The batteries are internal to Nissan. Who knows what the price is ? If you know anything about cost accounting, you will know there are a thousand ways to calculate the cost. In any case, saying that they know the price so they should tell you that (so that you can buy one 7 years from now) is not a serious argument. Companies don't tell you everything they know. That is why there are trade secrets.

I think the main concern here is, if they do not give a price now, they do so because they do not have any intention to ever sell batteries. If they cant give one now, why should they be able to do that tomorrow? They could have put a price tag on the battery in 2010.

How can this be a serious argument ? If a company doesn't do something now, they won't do it 7 years from now ?

 

[evnow]

I am sure that the price now...is more (t)han anyone would spend and with rebates it would be cheaper to buy a new car. The price in the future when people actually will be buying hem will be significantly less. However, everyone that is against electric cars will start using the replacement price as a reason why the electric cars have failed.

+1.

All the people clamoring for the price RIGHT NOW, so that they can buy one 7 years from now are playing right into the hands of Faux News types. Billionaire Saudi Sheiks thank you, laughing all the way to their luxury 100,000 sq ft air conditioned "tent".

 

[evnow]

Well, I could say why I want to know the current price on a part I expect to eventually need for my car is really none of your business, so there is no need for any "argument".

If that is your attitude, I'd take it that you don't really have a solid reason.

I think the question that is every present or future LEAF owner's legitimate concern, is why is the Nissan battery pack probably the only part of any Nissan vehicle, or any other vehicle currently for sale in the USA, for which the dealer will refuse to sell a part, that they manufacture and distribute?

Indeed, why ? Let me guess - is it because this is like a new industry, perhaps ?

We understand that pricing the battery pack is a complex business decision, and Nissan's desire to delay the price announcement for as long as possible.

Exactly. If you understand why they want to delay announcing the price as long as possible - why would you say they need to announce the battery price NOW ? What is the urgency ?

One of the most-asked questions, of course, is "What does it cost to replace the battery"?

I usually say, Nissan hasn't announced it - but you wouldn't need to replace the battery for several years and by then the prices would have fallen quite a bit. So, knowing the price now is fairly useless - apart from the curiosity factor.

"Nissan broke its promise to announce the battery pack price, and has refused to state when a price will be announced, or even if it will ever permit you to buy replacement battery pack at your local Nissan dealer at all."

Actually they announced the price of the battery - it is (about) $100 a month. You may not think of it as the battery pack price - but that is what it is.

Let me ask you this - did you get that survey from Nissan ? Did you read it ? What impression did you come out with - that they will announce a buy price, even though a lot of the questions were about renting/leasing ?

Here is my take - the price people were willing to pay for the battery was (much) less than what they would have had to sell it for. So they decided to offer only the rent.

The result might be a few unhappy owners - but they must have calculated that announcing the price would be worse - unhappy owners (price too high) and a lot of ammunition for the EV opponents.

 

[smkettner]

Here is my take - the price people were willing to pay for the battery was (much) less than what they would have had to sell it for. So they decided to offer only the rent.

Nissan may have confused "wishful thinking" and "willing to pay".

Best way is to announce a price. Only then do you discover willing to pay.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

evnow - your replies here are coming off a little trollish. I'd suggest you re-read some of them.

As for why people want to know the number, for some it's because it's now something they want to consider as a part of TCO. Some folks may want to baby their cars and keep them for 25 years.

For others, the concept of renting something (especially with no term limit) is not at all appealing.

And then there are others that just get upset at anything and are looking to pick a fight on the internet.


As for those that think Nissan will actually make an improved battery pack available in the future, unless they have made a firm commitment on that topic, you should assume it is NEVER going to happen. The costs get to be too big to handle. It's not about commitment to EV's, it's just a business decision.

 

[klapauzius]

The batteries are internal to Nissan. Who knows what the price is ? If you know anything about cost accounting, you will know there are a thousand ways to calculate the cost. In any case, saying that they know the price so they should tell you that (so that you can buy one 7 years from now) is not a serious argument. Companies don't tell you everything they know. That is why there are trade secrets.

Claiming after 2.5 years of production that they have no idea what the price of the battery is isn't serious either.
Given their "rental" plan, we can put an upper limit on the price: ~ $3600( or time to 70% in the worst possible climate in the US for batteries in months x $100) for an exchange of a 70% battery for a 100% battery. Come on, you dont need to play the same silly game, we are all grown ups.

How can this be a serious argument ? If a company doesn't do something now, they won't do it 7 years from now ?

Well, to the heat-degradation conundrum they only responded after some arm-twisting and in-your-face-facts. If they ever wanted to sell a battery, now, 2.5 years after introduction of the LEAF, they could come up with a price.

I am not sure what to make of the "all-is-normal-in-Arizona" company's announcements, but I would say it is very likely that they do not plan to sell a battery. Definitely not now and likely not in seven years (unless being forced to).

While you are right, that generally, that would be too much of an assumption, in this case, the circumstances and prior experiences make this a serious argument.

I personally could live without a price announcement right now, IF I had TRUST in Nissan that they would not let me sit on a useless car a few years from now.

If I could trust them and they told me that a replacement battery will be available for sale when mine fails, that would be enough for me right now.

 

[TomT]

Sorry, but $12,000 over ten years does not make sense to me and is of questionable ROI... The lipstick on this pig is peeling...

But, the way to not look at it is by starting with a "forever" - since your car won't last forever. So, start putting some real term limits to your car (like total 10 years), then it will start making sense.